So I am going to build a tumbling drum for black bear hides. If it is 6' tall, how wide should it be to tumble proper?
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E-mail Bruce Rittle, He has plans for a 6x4 drum. Joe
All you have to do is read a little bit. This was just posted by Bruce Rittel.
This response submitted by Bruce Rittel on 7/9/05 at 12:06 AM. ( Rittel@mindspring.com ) 207.69.136.203
Both heights (6' or 8')will effectively soften your Bear skins. However building it 8' will also increase your capacity. More skins per load.
However - also increase the amount of sawdust for the 8' Drum. Normally 2 50 lb. bags are used in a 6' Drum - so I'd use 3 50 lb. bags for the 8' Drum.
Actually a 6' X 6' Tumbling Drum would be even better. Especially if you're doing a lot of Alaskan Brown Bear skins. Sometimes large wide skins tend to fold in on themselves and roll up while being tumbled. Particularly Cowhides when using a Drum only 4' wide.
My spelling stinks! it's Rittel. Joe
jeff..at least 30 inches wide is ok.
4 ft. high is adiquit. << [love dat speling]
eJ
There you go again! You are so full of crap! You can not break a bear hide in a 4' drum! Quit giving people piss poor info!
I take it that 6 feet is the drop I need to do the breaking. If 6 foot breaks better then 4 foot, would not 8 feet break a bear even better?
jeff. the softnest of your bear skin will come 90% from using a quality enzyme in your pickel. proper tanning chemical and timing. and a high quality positively charged oil. [like Rittels supersoft]
the tumbling is more for cleaning than breaking.
ej
Tumbling in sawdust drums at least 6' preferably 8', the use of a staker, and a good quality oil are the main techniques for achieving softness.
Above all, shaving the hide correctly, thinning the areas around the neck and cheeks, will determine where you start from when trying to soften the leather on the dry end of the process.
Pickles and tans will set your hide up for shaving, but the shaving and the dry end are the main factors.
Kicking bears? Want a really soft bear, try the kicker with a kicking grease. Most taxidermists are not going to have this kind of equipment, so shaving, oiling, tumbling, and staking will generally do the trick.
Taxidermists arent going to have a staker either. Bottom line is, spend some big bucks if you want soft bears. As said already, a QUALITY ENZYME(lol) aint going to cut it! Untill then, be satisfied with your card-board bear hides, cause that all you are going to get.
Staking and Kickers are only excuses for using a poor oil! If you are willing to invest in a good oil - these operations are not necessary! Plus - what is your highest expense in a Tannery? Labor! So why work with a poor oil when there are good oils that only require only one swabbing and they are finished? Even if it costs you twice as much as the Oil you now use - it's cheaper than paying someone to individually stake or oil before kicking your skins! This is where quality (and common sense) pays off! Go for a better oil!
yes sir. bruce knows his stuff! &
i'd like to add that the quality oil and enzyme are going to save alot of wear and tear on the kickers and staker too. making their work that much easier.
but, i respect the opinion of os too. his older ways are sometimes giving way to new methods however.
but he's earned some respect for sure.
ej
I respectfully disagree. I have foxes that are dressed with the finest tans and oils, but letting them dry without touching them, or letting them dry in a "bird tumbler" with sawdust, produces a stiff and crinkly pelt. The skins must be staked, or stretched, during drying, to produce a really soft pelt. As I do not have a tumbler for "real" breaking.
It's not difficult. Well, it's not difficult unless one has to stake 100 skins a day. THEN it's difficult. :)
David, I called the place that sells kicking grease. I really wanted to try it. They won't sell it except in 440 lb drums. They won't do open stock or samples. It's about 1/8 the price per 1/2 gal. of the taxidermy tanning oils, but you have to go in 440 pounds just to get the deal. I guess if one is doing that kind of volume per run, it's justified.
A crappy tannery can still produce a very soft pelt, without any staking OR greasing with a quality oil, by drumming / breaking / tumbling the living crud out of it.
Large tannerys buy oil from suppliers that have been around alot longer than than any home tanning products, and are used by professional tanners worldwide!. They are manufactured by some very knowledgable folks, with lots of IN HOUSE technical support. Not second hand info that is passed on from manufacture to distributor, from a company with little to no experienced tanners on staff. Stakers and other equiptment, and hands on knowledge, is what seperates tannerys from at-home tanning. You can blow all the smoke you want, but there is no way in hell, you can turn out a bear, at home, as soft as a Tannery can. Poor oil,no. I think we have a different definition of soft. I have seen hides tanned by some of your apprentices, and I wouldnt use them for door mats! They were stiff as a honeymoon- you know what!
To all who have posted. We tan deer skins for folks all of time. We use Rittels and Knoblochs products both of which can be bought for home tanning. I resent the statement that a good quality tan can not be acheived at home. We have many happy customers and zero complaints. Our customers do not want us to send their skins to a professional because they feel we do a superb job. Bruce Rittel and David Patton have sent me numerous answers to all my questions and so have the folks at Knobloch's. In my opinion some of the pro tanners that post here refuse to beleive that good quality tanning can be acheived at home. We do not have stakers nor stretchers but we do have a 6' tumbler, we use excellent oil, and we take great pride in our work. No offense to anyone. However, we are sensible enough to know our limitations and send out what we don't feel comfortable or confident enough to do.
jeff...you started a good one!
ok. john. this one time in a billion i agree w/ you.
please, lets be nice boys!
look oldshave you don't have to have lots of people and under you and be involved in the day to day operations of a tannery to know what the hell your talking about!
i guess it all comes down to a chemical break or a physical break.
i know the side i come down on. i have to. i have a living to make.
to get my bear leather as soft as a 50th wedding anniversary, you know what.
ej
anything about a tan? Softening bears was the topic. Ej, please tell me that you arent the guy that says he leaves his bears in pickle for a month. I have e-mailed very few people on here, because I dont have my own personal agenda of recruiting business prospects. I just like the debate, thats all.
EJ stated he leaves all his skins in the pickle for 9 months "just for safety".
well if i can afford to i do.
actually i bought out another tannery 3 years ago. some of those hides were in the pickel for 14 years. they were fine. the guy new what he was doing. tell me what can hurt them?
and alot of those hides were paper thin ranch fox too. believe me they were fine. oh and by the way. i also raised ranch fox for 17 years so i think i know a little about that leather.
so who's blowing the smoke now mr. oldspice
ej
We want to call names now? I will get back to this tonight, and give you a few sourses to look at, by people from leather conservation groups.
i 'll be interested in any data you may have to present. but what's a "leather conservation group"? the customer is the main authority i listen to.
ej
Certain tannins require processing that produces leathers that are particularly susceptible to attack by a destructive chemical decay known as red rot. Red rot is a deterioration of leather that produces a red, powdery surface (Canadian Conservation Institute 1992). Red rot occurs when the tannin reacts with sulfuric acid. Leather objects affected by red rot will go through a variety of stages. Vegetable tanned leather made between 1850 to 1900 is particularly susceptible to this reaction. Museums with large shoe collections and libraries with books dating from this period will attest to this (Haines 1991c). This is due in part to the removal of what are called non-tans while manufacturing leather during this time period. Non-tans are protective enzymes usually found in animal skins. When the animal is alive, non-tans help to protect the animal's skin from environmental influences as well as to increase its durability (Plenderleith 1970). According to Haines (1991c), before 1850 organic acids were used during the hair removal process. Because these acids are not as active as mineral acids, they did not remove all of the calcium salts (non-tans) in the leather. After 1850, however, liquid sulfuric acid, a more active mineral acid, was used and it removed all of the calcium salts. Use of sulfuric acid produced the more uniform finish desired by leather manufacturers. Although the calcium salts contribute nothing to the processing of leather, they did offer protection against the ill effects of contact with sulfuric acid in a gaseous form (Waterer 1971). With the complete removal of the non-tans, these leathers are much more susceptible to red rot. Unfortunately, there is no cure for leather objects affected by red rot (Graham-Bell 1986; Guldbeck 1969). All that can be done is to try to preserve the object in as good a condition as possible for as long as it will last. Leather objects dating before 1886, when chrome tanning, a type of mineral tanning, was perfected, were probably processed using a vegetable tanning method (Color Plus 1997).---Leather conservation groups are usually museum curators that hold conferences on how to protect artifacts and mounts in museums from atmospheric decay. Keeping skins in any mineral acid pickle for long periods of time, will disolve all the calcium salts in the skin, which will cause trouble with the mount in the long run. Even the wrong types of oil, and how they are applied, will have an adverse effect on the adhesives of a mount. I do not claim to know everything, or always be right. I just do alot of reading of authors that know alot more than I do, and have research to back them up. Combine that with close to 20 years of tannery employment, and you get a basis for my opinions.
Why don't you tell us what the name of your tannery is so we can avoid you like the plague. Just because you own a tannery does not make you anywhere near an expert. Actually, I beleive you know less about tanning than you do BS. Even I knew that leaving a hide (any hide) in the pickle for too long is not recommended but sometimes skins may have to stay in longer than warranted. Why in the hell would someone leave a skin in pickle for 14 years?
don't worry john we avoid crappy idiots like you here at taylor's tannery in as much as possible..
the reason this tannery we purchased pickled some hides for 14 years was bankruptcy. ever hear of a court that new the value of a pickeling hide? what were they supposed to do with them. throw them away? well bankruptcy caused this situation of pickeling for 14 years. you know. [or maybe you don't] real life. not some garbage retoric like the above pasted crap.
i KNOW for a proven fact that the pickel is/can be a perment storage solution for alot of misinformed people practicing this art. the art of tanning.
so go smoke one john, as if you haven't already..
ej
Don't worry I will send my stuff to OS or David Patton. As for the idiot remark: It is a shame that you have to resort to calling people names and making accusations. How old are you anyway, 12? You really ought to learn how to spell the big words before you use them too. Tanning is not an art, it is a science. Too bad you don't know the difference. I at least speak honestly and don't claim to know everything about tanning but I do know when someone is really blowing smoke. I have learned to trust folks like OS and David Patton because they are established professionals and what they say in my opinion is law. You come on here and act like you know it all. How long have you been tanning? Like OS said, you better be able to back up what you say by written proof!
ok. you can spell. but you can't tan your way out of a paper bag. so go join a spelling bee site.
what os paisted does not pertain to the pickle.
all that red rust stuff is in air or oxygen conditions. the "pickel is not exposted to ogygen. besides whats the harm? try it! take one of your deer hides and pickel for a while. see what harm comes to it! you'll find it might improve. im not acting anything im only giving my experience for others to consider. and that i think is my right coming on to this site.
you on the other hand always have your yap open saying nothing. and exposing your empty brain. but have fun. anyway. if running me down blows your turbine. well, go for it!
ej
I doubt it. I happen to be very well educated in engineering and common sense. What do you mean when you say the pickle is not exposed to air or oxygen? Are you tanning on the moon? Enough said! See Ya!
Pickle as a permanent storage? Where I work, we have to put epoxy paint on the floors, once a year, to keep pickel from eating the concrete! What the hell do you think it does to collegen? Pickle as long as it takes to prep the skin for shaving, nothing more. Youll be selling your tannery in a few years, when you start loosing customers due to mounts falling apart.
collegen is a fat. and fat is not wanted or needed in leather, at least not before it's tanned.
sure acid [the pickel] neutralizes base [concrete]. but to compare concrete with leather. come on~~~
E.J. - Did you ever get beyond the eight grade in education?
The pickle is not a permanent storage and your opinion is of absolutely no value to the arguement. Storage in a highly acidic medium will certainly invite chemical breakdown over even a months' time.
Old shaver, thanks for the posting on red rot. I had an on-line discussion with Bruce Rittle a couple years ago and tried to explain it to him. At the time, he had never heard of it - though librarians here had been dealing with it for years. Did the citation come from Leather Conservation News. The Museums' copy is held in the Conservation Department so if you give the full citation I could obtain a copy for my files.
is not a fat. Collagen is the fibrous protein constituent of skin, cartilage, bone, and other connective tissue. If you don't beleive me look it up. Collagen is the actual structure of the skin and most certainly not fat.
for you EJ.
The main structural component of the lower layer of the skin (Dermis) is a protein called collagen. Bundles of collagen molecules pack together throughout the dermis, accounting for three-fourths of the dry weight of skin. Collagen is also responsible for the skin's strength. Collagen is produced by cells called fibroblasts, which are found scattered throughout the dermis.
well sir, no my eight grade classroom was spent more having fun with my life long friends and chaseing the girls.
and librarys, conservation groups and museums are not relevant to the original post by jeff asking for drum size opinions.
my educations comes more from hard earned long seasons 20 plus years in the fur business. and hands on day to day experiences in the tannery.
but for you PA to say my opinion is of "no value" to the oringinal post by jeff, asking for drum size recomendations well. my opinion is that you are a pompus PIG/ PA
PA stands for Pompousus assini.
It would seem to me that a discussion of 14 year old pickled hides are also irrelevant to a question on drum size. Your criticism and attacks on old shaver and John would certainly also qualify as you assuming pompous status likewise.
There is always a scientific basis for how tanning occurs and you seem intimidated by the knowledge of Old Shaver. You now switch stories to say that the hides were not stored in the pickle solution for 14 years. I tried to follow your arguments but without understnding what you were saying it is real hard to. Read the post under molding "Help me with this project". I can't understand what the person is asking about there - maybe you can help him, as you undestnd gibberish.
I still like my 6ft tall and 4ft wide drum... it works great for black bears or any thing that size or smaller. Joe
im gald you like your 6 ft. drum . sounds like a winner. i wish i had the space for one. but im getting by very well with my 4 footer.yes. i hope we are all done. i admit i was wrong about collogen. its a building block of life by what i;ve since learned. but don't let these so call experts on here fool you. these baffoons do not know that a pickel of salt and ph 1-2 acid can be a permenent storage solution. think of the possibilities. like buying low and selling high. the building blocks of business
respectfully yours ej
We do know that you can leave skins in a pickle for an extended period. But why? Actually, the pickle used to be the one and only step for tanning on mounts. Don't believe me? Ask George Roof. Our debate with you is about why you would want to leave a hide in a pickle solution for so long. I understand if it can't be helped, the skins can stay in the pickle for extended periods but never on purpose as a permanent storage. They are better off in the freezer or salted dry. Even with freezer burn Glen Conley has Stop Rot in case that happens.