Submitted by jody on 8/20/05 at 12:00 PM. ( )

im wanting to try jrts and was wondering since you can skip pickling on a fresh hide does a mount have that musty smell like liquitan does drying.the reason im asking is because its simular to the method of liqutan.but id rather not have that musty smell.

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"Musty" smell?

This response submitted by George on 8/20/05 at 12:35 PM. ( georoof@aol.com )

It has a slight lanolin smell to it and if you wash it before you mount it in Knobloch's Pre-Soak, it will have a short term chemical smell to it. If you use neither and wash it in Downy, it will smell "baby fresh" or in Dawn it will have very little smell at all.


This response submitted by jody on 8/20/05 at 6:50 PM. ( )

ive read alot on jrts and i think ill like it.ive pickled with liquitan and didnt get good stretch.ive skipped pickling and liquitanned and always had an odor to contend with.and still no stretch even on thin shaved hides.but its time to change and ill order some jrts for this next season.thanks george.

Quality Taxidermy requires-

This response submitted by oldshaver on 8/20/05 at 9:12 PM. ( )

a quality PROFESSIONAL tan. DP and brush on tans are a quick fix for people that dont know better. Its nothing more than cutting corners to save money, there-by turning out a below average mount, that may look good at first, but will run into problems, because its not a true tan. I probablly started a fire with this post, but I honestly believe this. Why dont yall just pickle, shave, and tan with a submersable tan and quit being so lazy.

this i can tell you

This response submitted by paul on 8/20/05 at 10:57 PM. ( )

ive taken antlers off mounts 10 yrs old that were brush on tanned
and off of mounts using real tans over the yrs for remounting, what a difference! im with you o.s. there are no short cuts to produce quality taxidermy that will last for generations period! go ahead boys give us hell

Real small stuff I can understand-

This response submitted by oldshaver on 8/21/05 at 8:33 AM. ( )

Dp or a brush on tan. We have a life size freaking Tiger at work, that someone attempted to tan with a brush on, and now we are re-tanning it. How someone could do that to a Tiger, ill never know.

paul you and o.s. are in a heap now

This response submitted by George on 8/21/05 at 10:02 AM. ( )

To compare DP to paint on tans is such a stretch even the jockstrap couldn't hold that together. Come on. As for the paint on tans, get ready for Knobloch's to teach you a little chemistry. Ken Walker has done a boatload of stuff that's still withstanding the test of time. Now tell me where I can see all of Hornaday's mounts that he TANNED with alum. I've told this story several times here, but to show you the total prejudice and opinionated ideals you share, Don Stevens has a test running just for you. He has three mounts that are getting on up in years as we speak. He mounted 3 deer. One is with a professionally tanned hide, one is with DP, and the other is with a RAW HIDE. He tells me that all three look just as good as the day they were mounted. (and NO, we aren't talking bugs cause all three are just as susceptible to bugs now that we can't have any insecticides that last)

You two guys are also the ones extolling the pickle step in tanning. If a person pickles the hide and then paints the tan on, what's the deal? I'm old enough to remember when PICKLE was the ONLY STEP.

And I'll save the best for last. Either one of you tell me this. What is the exact, industry accepted STANDARD, definition of the word "tan"? Remember, it has to be EXACT. Now variations of chemicals, pH's, methods or procedures. The STANDARD. You can't even tell me two tanneries that use the exact same steps so I know you're not going to find a STANDARD. Tanners always badmouth paint on's and DP. Sam Touchstone said that anyone who ever got in a hide with salt on it should throw the hide away and get a fresh one as he believed his DP was the best there was. BTW, some of his work is still available unlike Hornaday's. I would NEVER expect a tanner to think otherwise, but you shouldn't be surprised with others don't agree with that position either.

I've used both!

This response submitted by John W. on 8/21/05 at 11:10 AM. ( )

Oldshaver,you did open up a can of worms.I've tanned both ways,I do use a pickle to tan either way.If I brought you over to my shop and asked you to tell me which skin was submersed or painted on ,you couldn't tell me.To make such a statement insures in my mind you don't know what your talking about ,you have a good day!

ok george

This response submitted by paul on 8/21/05 at 3:43 PM. ( )

I will subscribe to the fact brush ons are acceptable, providing the pickeling step is not eliminated. talk to Mark Daniels at Knobloch's
or just read the directions on a container of liqua tan and you will see this step is not required but recommended! same goes for the McKenzie brush on, I assume this step is recommended because of a superior end result and the fact a pickeled skin is less likely to develop hair loss or slippage problems, And i would rather mount a plain pickeled skin (no tan) Than a unpickeled brush on tanned skin
I suspect the debate will never end, if i had the time id mount a deer head using an alum tan, brush on no pickel, and a salt dried pickeled syntanned (ez-100) id hang them from a tree in my back yard
and expose them to the hot humid summers and bitter cold and wet winters of pa. just to see how they hold up. i do have my suspicions.
with todays superior adhesives i suspect a raw skin could look good good mounted up. but would it stand the test of time? Thats my concern in the whole debate. not every customer of mine can afford a climate controlled trophy room or glass case for every mount i do for them, what i do try to provide them with is a properly tanned specemin that will stand the test of time, sometimes in less than perfect climates

I suspect the adhesives are the key, paul

This response submitted by George on 8/21/05 at 4:55 PM. ( )

But I'm never gonna buy that pickle bit. I've been on that train too long and MY experience showed me that pickles cause as many problems as they cure. Neutralizing just a bit off, not enough salt, anything, it goes to hell in a handbasket. Pickled hides NEVER have the stretch that I get from JRTS without pickle (been there, done that), and the fact that the manufacturers are even ADMITTING that it is "recommended" implies that they are no longer sure. A good, fresh hide, salted properly and tanned creates the same end item, only with more stretch.

I think-

This response submitted by oldshaver on 8/21/05 at 6:24 PM. ( )

some of the paint tans will work, only if pickled and shaved, but alot of Taxidermists dont do that. One of the best Taxidermists I know, Ron Schaefer, told me that Liquitan, by Knoblochs, was a very good product, when a hide was pickled and shaved first. The tiger I am refering to was not shaved, and is covered with membrane. The hair is a little loose, but I think it will turn out pretty good. Hornadys mounts were pickled with sulphuric, and I honestly believe the problem lies there, and not with the alum. Isnt the supposed problem with alum, is that it will form sulphuric, when soaking up a skin? But its ok to pickle with sulphuric? Thanks to polymers, and masking agents, alum will soon be replacing chrome, according to the current studies I am reading, in the leather mfg. industry. The ability of aluminum to bond with skin is almost doubling, and the temps in curl tests are surpassing 100degrees celcius. These methods are already in place in many tannerys, and the numbers are growing. Thanks to modern chemistry, your opinion of alum will soon change, do to the fact, that in a couple of years, chrome tanning will become a thing of the past, and your shoes will be alum tanned, along with your leather coats, due to chromes enviromental restrictions.

Alum MAY one day

This response submitted by George on 8/21/05 at 8:50 PM. ( georoof@aol.com )

I was reading the above post about coyotes stinking and Krotann being used and cringed at the idea that any washing would likely wash the tan out, but the jury's still out on that product I guess and only time will tell.

As far as the sulfuric acid pickle, I don't THINK that played into it. I used sulfuric and when you neutralized the pickle, I ASSUMED that the sulfides were taken away during neutralization. Either way, the hydrogen and sulfur DID bond back together eventually according to theory which led to disintegration. That old dextrine paste sure didn't help matters any I'm sure.

Jody try this

This response submitted by Mark on 8/23/05 at 9:47 AM. ( )

Your two problems here may be solved in one step. You are getting the musty smell and the shrinkage because of one thing. You have too much moisture in your skins when you go to Liqua Tan them. Drain them longer or better, here are a few opitons. After neutralizing the skin and rinsing any salt out you can spin it out in a washing machine for 4 min then turn it over and spin it again for 4 min or so, then I will either put the tan on then or let it hang for a few hours then put the warmed Liqua Tan on. I like the skin just damp enough that it sticks to your hand when you lift up after pressing down on it, this also will allow it to dry quicker. If you have too much salt in the skin it will draw moisture back in or be slow in drying. If you do not have access to a washer you can twist the water out of the skin and drain then roll it up twice in a bath towel then hang for 2 to 3 hours then put the Liqua Tan on. We can just fix the problem instead of thinking its the product, you will see the difference if you drain you skins better and put a fan near them.



This response submitted by jody on 8/23/05 at 8:43 PM. ( )

ill try drying the capes better and see what happens.thanks.

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