Just thought I would bring this up to see what kind of input would come from it.......I looked on the archives and only seen one write up about it......After I see the responses from you all then I,ll give mine.......Thanks ....TD
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P.S. ....give this one hell George..... lol
TD, the word bactericide is a generic term, meaning a solution that is used to kill bacteria. Hand soap kills bacteria, therefore is bactericidal. In regards to using clorox as a bacteria killer it is bactericidal as well. It is possible to use clorox mixed in a 1:10 concentration with water. I am a central processing supervisor in a hospital. We used bleach in 1:10 or 1:100, depending on the level of disinfection required. I personally don't use any extra bactericidal agents, I rely on a clean shop and prompt treatment of specimens. The war with microorganisms is a time related thing and since you can't remove the food(the hide), you make it inedible. My advice is to keep specimens dry, either freeze them fresh as soon as possible, or skin them and apply dry preservative or salt as soon as possible.
In a tan I would opt for a bactericide, for disinfecting counters/tools nothing beats bleach.
DaveT
In all the tanning solutions we use, the acids are effective at inhibiting bacterial growth. Is your hide going to set at room temperature for a few days so it can turn green and slimy, then there's Stop Rot that does a whole lot better job than any bacteriacide. Clorox is a BLEACH. This is TAXIDERMY people, and not rocket science. Adding all the Mr. Wizard chemistry into the mix won't make you a rocket scientist. That is, of course, unless your name is Glen Conley. LMAO
BTW, ask Rick Carter about his experiment in making Tiger Leather. ROTFLMAO
Think about the PH involved. Most "Tannery" Bacteriacides do their job by adding only a small amount and not enough to change the PH drastically. Whereas adding Cholorax will involve a lot of change! Why would you want to do this? Please rethink adding Chlorax!
......I do know the results of useing clorox.......I have been Dry Preserveing my deer capes for years (Bess maid DP)......in the last three years I have been useing clorox .......first I flesh and shave the raw cape as thin as possible.....then I soak it in water with a SMALL amount of clorox for say 5 minutes or so......a cape that may seem to have some odor (boarder line) will turn the water green .......then I go on to washing, tumbleing, mounting .......OK now .....all I know is before I used this procedure I lost caped to slipage more often......now I rarely loose one......If it doesnt slip when I put it in the clorox water it wont slip during the rest of the proccess......It doesnt take a rocket scientist to see whats happening .......Kill the bacteria and stop the slippage .......It,s not goin to bleech your cape.....I,m not putting the cape in a a high concentrate to bleech......I also know as an X Paramedic that clorox is the best bacteria/germ killer I know of.......but anyways ......who cares about the chemistry....the results are outstanding and have been for years..............TD
Now what we're trying to tell you is that you're playing with your ass. I do hope that's said plainly enough. The pH of Clorox is about an 11. DP is about a 10. Now anything above a 7 (neutral or water pH) is considered alkali. To make buckskin with the hair off, you use LYE which has a pH around 12. Lye will make the hair fall out. Conversely, to lock in hair, you need to go towards the acidic end of the pH scale. Acids run between 1 and 2 and this locks the hair in. Once a hide is properly pickled, it won't slip unless that slippage began before it was entered into the solution.
When you DP a deer hide, we all know that the hair will pull out very easily until the alum and the talc are able to work their little magic and dry the hide to the point where the hair follicle is locked in. It pulls out because of the high pH of the borax it contains.
Slippage on hides seldom happens in a shop. Slippage is caused primarily by piss poor field care and handling BEFORE it reaches our shops. A hide properly handled and treated in a timely manner will not slip. You could mount the sucker green and it still wouldn't slip.
To answer your final question, obviously you and your EX-paramedic buddy don't care about chemistry. Ask him if he's ever heard of betadine or alcohol? He'd be the last damned guy I'd want to see if I had an accident. He'd probably put DP in my lacerations to stop them from bleeding. I can do that by myself, thank you.
George ......If i,m playing with my *&^ then why am saveing capes in stead of looseing them......I already know the PH levels......so stateing them as an attack was a waste of your words.....Also .....I was the Medic not my buddy and for your information 99% of the EMT,s Paramedics and nurses rub an alcohol pad and stick the IV needle.....I was a good Medic ....I use the alcohol to CLEAN and the betadine to disinfect on all my patients ....if you are in need....with luck you,ll get someone like me.......You seem to have a habit of attacking peoples character on a lack of knowledge of that person........Well here is an attack based on what I see by your writeings......You seem to me to be very RUDE and closed minded or You are just doin it to pull chains but if that is so your humor is a little off.... lol I dont put clorox in my pickle or tanning .........I use it prior........so it doesnt effect the PH of my pickle......I,m not trying bust anyones bubble ...I,m just telling you what I do ....and it works........Just wondering if anyone else out there has tryed it.......TD
Let me get this straight. "who cares about the chemistry....the results are outstanding and have been for years." And then there's " I dont put clorox in my pickle or tanning .........I use it prior........so it doesnt effect the PH of my pickle" or "It doesnt take a rocket scientist to see whats happening .......Kill the bacteria and stop the slippage". What I told you is incontrovertivable fact. ONE: adding anything alkalai at any point to a hide WILL effect the stability of the acid. TWO: Slippage is NOT something that happens in the pickle, but certainly is enhanced in an alkali solution. DP is playing along a razored edge when working with capes but the hair loss is NOT slippage, but rather the reaction to the chemical in use, and THREE: Basic chemistry IS something anyone who's trying to treat a hide should concern himself with. Now none of that's being "rude". It's all about being honest with oneself and stating incontrovertable facts of science. Anything else is actually and specifically "playing with your ass". I'm sorry you took it personally but I'm not sorry for making sure the FACTS are presented on this post.
When clorox is mixed as I stated above it has a pH that is neutral with a pH of 7. Clorox when mixed above is safe and eventually breaksdown to its basic component- salt water. My concern would be mixing it in a tan and how the chorine would act with the tanning chemicals. Used and diluted properly by itself, it is a great bactericidal.
......let me take a different approach at this........I take a cape and I flesh and shave it for mounting then I soak it in water with a small amount of clorox.......I then wash it and tumble it dry in corn cob grit or hard wood saw dust......then I DP it and continue with the mounting......after it,s mounted I work in the details and push the hide into the glue with my hands.......It,s a hot day and the mounting takes say 4 to 5 hours if I didnt sew any big holes........No hair came loose at all. OK .....same deer but I didnt soak in the Clorox.......I get to the point where I,m useing my hands to push the hide to the form and hairs are slipping......Question......Does Bacteria cause slippage? and dureing the time of the mounting is it still detiorateing?.........I mount a lot of deers and dureing the time that I have used the clorox i have never had one slip this way but before the clorox .....I did.........I,m getting results and makeing money(not looseing capes and time) so If this is PLAYING WITH MY ASS George then what,s wrong with that LOL..... And I have used it on deers before I pickle for tanning but only on capes I think maybe trouble(bad odor)and I have saved capes this way....so it works...........TD
Clorine Bleach is an aqueous solution of sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl), less than 8%. Used even further diluted it does make a good anti-bacterial. The pH right out of the bottle is ~11.5, basic. It reacts with acids and give off gas, chlorine..
It does not break down into salt water.
Ever spill some on your skin? Washing it off can be quite "slimy". Bases usually do this as they are turning the fats in your skin into soap, (soaponification). Lye solutions do the same.
My first experience with it and taxidermy (many moons ago when I was a young lad) was for killing the lice on a fresh chipmunk that I did in for practice. I let him soak in a solution of it for about an hour and when I came back and lifted him out...poof! all the hair was gone! Only the very tip of the tail that wasn't in the solution was spared. It will make the hair slip given proper... or rather improper concentration and time.
Here is a link to the MSDS right from the company. Read the warnings on the back of the container also.
http://www.cloroxprofessional.com/msds/pdf/ucg_bleach.pdf
Don't ever mix chlorine bleach with other cleaning fluids. Mixing with ammonia for example will produce chlorine gas and hydrazine gas....deadly. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/collective/A795611..
Whatever floats your boat if it works, in those dilute solutions it may not be harmful, but there are better alternatives.
I was not debating how caustic pure Clorox is or its dangers when mixed with metallic elements. But bleach (sodium hypochlorite) when mixed with water eventually does break back to down NaCl. Sodium hypochlorite can be made by taking NaCl(salt) mixing it with water and exposing it to an electrolysis cell and the reaction forms sodium hypochlorite.
I do agree with you that you must use your brain when using bleach, but when diluted properly it is used to treat drinking water, swimming pools, sewage, etc.
I think TD's point is that if you take a small amount of bleach, and we are talking small, mix it with water. Then put your hide in for less than five minutes it will kill the majority of bacteria. That fact is not debatable, even the CDC supports the APIC practice of using diluted sodium hypochlorite as a disinfectant.
I don't use this practice though, I believe in turning down poor specimens and prompt treatment of acceptable ones and try to get them to the pickle bath ASAP. But what TD states is true,also what George states is true, I would never put a hide in a diluted bleach solution after it has DP on it and I would never put bleach in a pickle or tan since these contain metals. Your right too, bleach is caustic, but when used as directed it is safe.
IMO, bacteriacides and any other goat roped concoction to prevent bacteria growth is unnecessary. The chemistry Cyclone and Scanman provide is solid, but again, unnecessary. A guy DPing his hide will NEVER have a slippage problem with a green cape in a fresh condition. I used DP for over 25 years and I may not have seen it all, but whatever was left over couldn't have been much anyway. Guys complained to me about "slippage" and I found they took hides in without caping them out for several days and THEN they want to tell me about bacteria. EXCUSE ME! If you don't let the damned hides rot, they won't slip. I still use DP on the foxes and small cats simply because their affinity for slipping. DP is slam-bam-thankyoumaam and once mounted, you leave it alone and the hair will lock into place. I don't have slipped ears on my foxes like a great many people do that tan them because of that. Contact with the ear is minimal and then it's done. I never added Clorox or anything else. I skin the animal, quickly wash it off (usually with a mild soap to break the grease off), rinse quickly, spin dry, DP, and mount, groom and then leave it the hell alone till it dries. I still maintain that people who have "slippage" problems don't know what slipping actually is, OR they have bigger problems with their preparation stages. We all know that early fall bears are trouble, yet many people resort to CHEMISTRY to solve their work ethics problems. JUST MY OPINION.
.....for the inputs .......I figured it would be an interresting subject to bring up.......I too will turn down an obviously bad cape(offer a recape)but sometimes its hard to tell since you dont know what they done before you get it and what may seem to be a perfectly good cape may give you problems down the way.......I noticed there was a lot of mis understandings as to how I use the clorox......There is no doubt that most of the opinions were correct but some were way off coarse......The way it was put it was as tho I was putting the cape in strait bleech or adding it to pickle and acids.......Maybe it,s my writeing.......It,s not my strongest tallent and sometimes I dont express my self well in writeing.......Anyways .....keep the site a learning experiance and keep the all the smart a^% remarks off the forums LOL....GL everyone and Thanx again.....TD
Doh...... I thought I did .......
Folks used "brown bottle Lysol" for the same function. That was before the phenol was removed. Phenol, carbolic acid, has a low pH (hence the acid name)and is a potent antibacterial. In high concenrations or long term exposures it is carcinogenic. I used to rinse the hides with a dilute solution, using my bare hands to submerge the hide and wring it out...For the life of me I couldn't figure out why I felt like hell warmed over the next morning...Duh!
I usually like to point out the possible dangers of chemicals..worse case scenarios. I guess I get it from being the safety officer at work. I don't want any of you fellers waking up dead I guess...
The last line of my post should have indicated that I knew you weren't using it straight....
"in those dilute solutions it may not be harmful, but there are better alternatives."
I've got a lot of "home brews" that I use myself...always looking for something better and easier...A few work great but some, more often than not, have been a bust...
Just be safe..
.....for the information.......I know you understood how I was useing the clorox.........Many many moons ago when I was a young buck .....I was in the house washing buisiness and although it may not have been safe .....I used to add the Lysol to the clorox(lysol wth Phenol)and run it thru a pressure washer .......the combination would knock the mildew/mold off the house really fast(better than just bleech).....when they took out the Phenol the results wernt as good .........I learned this off someone who taught me the buisiness and remembering back.....it was probably dumb and un safe cause that mixture would knock your socks off with a good wiff.......But I know better now ....I,m alot older and hopefully wizer lol......
been busy ass hell this week, got back from the races monday night(left last tuesday-"JR. top 10!" eurys' gonna shake s... up!)and i guess we all know what a cluster f... the 1st couple of days back from some time off can be. any ways couldnt sleep and have been dying to catch up on the archives and after reading this one i'm wide awake! just wanted to tell george, td, scanman,mr.Rittel & cyclone THANK YOU for the discussions like this. you dont just put out the pros & cons of the chemicals,but without even probably realizing you're doing it you state the scientific basis & data of your information, but then break it down into lamens terms so someone not as experienced or educated on these matters like myself can understand everyones viewpoints and at the same time make sense of the scientific vocabulary. any ways i got my moneys worth out of this forum and appreciate all of your points- yall save someone like myself (curious as a cat!) a lot of valuable time because of your hands on experience. the one thing i truly love about this forum is that most of the Q&A are based on the persons experience, not just someones theory. as for george being taken as rude, i'd much rather have a no b.s. sgt. MOTIVATING me rather than a book smart 2nd. lieutenant trying to impress me, he's not rude, he's just a little cantankerous, one things for sure though, if you get a response from george it will catch your attention and you will actually remember that one paragraph of advise forever.you will definetly read everything else he has to say after he's just accused you of playing with your ass! kinda ingenious in a weird way-maybe a school teacher could try the same approach with an A.D.D. kid and see if he's got his and everyone elses attention! then he could do taxidermy full time after he gets fired! oh by the way "jimmy johnson plays with his and jeff gordons ass"
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