When will you people learn?

Submitted by oldshaver on 1/21/06 at 7:56 PM. ( )

Quit washing your damn skins in TIDE. Probablly ever tide product has sodium hydroxide in it! It weakens freaking hair roots! Not a Krowtan problem! I started a new thread on this subject because I engaged my fingers before thinking, quite a few posts down. I made the statement, that, alum would not fix when combined with an acid. There were 2 exceptions to this rule. Citrates, and acetates. Both presently used as masking agents in leather tanning. The acid I am speaking of is acetic acid, an acetate. Masking agents will increase the aluminum bond greatly. The other acid would be citric. I am used to thing in terms of formic and sulphuric. Brian, I just wanted to admit, I do see a good fixation possible after neutralization. I assume the next to last ingredents, are aldehyde tanning agents.(synthetic) Keep your clothes washing supplies in the washroom, and out of your Taxidermy shop!

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So tell me

This response submitted by heath cline on 1/21/06 at 8:28 PM. ( heath6799@yahoo.com )

what should be happening to my capes after washing in liquid tide after Krowtann? I have washed 125-150 capes the last two years in tide after Krowtann and have had NO slippage at all.
Not saying you are wrong, but why don't I see any problems ?
Am I just lucky ( for the first time in my life) ? HAHA

Origional water ph?

This response submitted by oldshaver on 1/21/06 at 9:05 PM. ( )

Hard or soft water? Who knows? All I know, is after after I read the Tide msds, red flags came up. Maybe left too long in Tide, and at what concentration? Leave an old deer hide, that you dont care about, in a ph of 7.5 overnight, and see what happens. Glen, has pointed this out before, so, I aint the only one with this belief. If your having good luck so far with your present concentration, I sure wouldnt go up. If you got an old POS skin laying around, double your concentration of tide, when washing, and tell us what happens. Have a good one.

I understand if you change

This response submitted by heath cline on 1/21/06 at 9:16 PM. ( heath6799@yahoo.com )

the mixture INSTEAD of following the directions, things might change. First of all, why would I leave it in tide over night or double what the directions call for ? That is just asking for trouble, thats just common sense if you ask me. Is that what this theory is based on, overdoing what is called for? Pretty thin.
You can say that about anything in this world. Take any medication ?
I am sure some you wouldn't want to double it because the reactions might change.

My capes

This response submitted by Bill on 1/21/06 at 10:07 PM. ( whansen6359@charter.net )

are never in the wash longer than 5 minutes at the most. Is this enough time to do damage? This is the way I was taught at Dennis Rineharts' school and I have not had any problems. That doesn't mean using detergent with enzymes isn't bad; I see JRTC now says to use Dawn instead. Does that have sodium hydroxide in it? Just trying to learn. Only been doing this for a year and a half. I've also used Krowtan and had no problems with that. I've also sent out hides to professional tanneries and had good luck with them. I have had problems with small mammals (weasels and squirrels) slipping, but I didn't even make it to the wash on those.


This response submitted by oldshaver on 1/21/06 at 10:46 PM. ( )

Just trying to point out the effects of over basification. I dint know there was directions on a Tide bottle for de-greasing animal skins. I stand corrected. Bill, you should be ok. The sodium hydroxide content is too low to matter. I noticed you left out the point about water ph? Wont be back on this subject. Keep washing them in Tide, and good luck.

ILL add one more thing

This response submitted by oldshaver on 1/21/06 at 11:05 PM. ( )

Ther is about 6 hundred gallons of sodium hydroxide, in a tank, I use for neutralizing all the solutions leaving my employers plant. My guess, it takes about 5 gallons per 1000 gallons of pickle to get above a ph of 5. How strong is sodium hydroxide? You do the math.

listen up.

This response submitted by ej on 1/21/06 at 11:49 PM. ( . )

i've been on this forum about 2 years now. and tanning garment style for about 6 years now. you new guys ought to listen to oldshaver,. his ph ideas/facts are right on the money.
i'm very glad he posts them here. its stuff for the archives believe me.
tide gained alot of publicity back in the 70s and 80s when it made alot of western yotes shine for the fur buyer. but its day is done. believe me. i mean believe oldshaver. he sometimes sounds a little combative but i have found he know one heck of alot.. and is very nice of him to offer that stuff on here. sometimes with much pains. getting thru to the many dummies..of course that;s just my opinion.

ej speaks again

This response submitted by ej on 1/21/06 at 11:54 PM. ( . )

one damm good use for tide. or bleach or lysol. or any of them 13-14 ph marvel chemicals...it's cleaning your spinners, washing machines, buckets, floors, mixing tanks or what ever else you use in your tanning area. and they should be rinced free afterwards as well.

My point is

This response submitted by heath cline on 1/22/06 at 12:25 AM. ( heath6799@yahoo.com )

is the only thing you are telling me is it will harm my capes if I leave it in over night and double the amount of tide ?. Why would I change the directions? My question still is : what can I expect to happen to my capes that has not happen yet ?
By the way, my water comes from my well and through a water softener, there you go.
I liked that about not seeing directions on a tide bottle for washing skins. HAHA
Tell me, is there directions on other glues and supplies that we taxidermist use that were not actually made for taxidermy ? But yet we use them.
Oh and until I see a problem, I see no reason to not wash them in Tide like the direction say to. Maybe after another 200-300 I will.

Its amazing

This response submitted by steved on 1/22/06 at 5:13 AM. ( aaa_taxidermy@yahoo.com )

Some people have to learn the hard way, instead of listening to experience.

Heath, I just had to try one more time

This response submitted by os on 1/22/06 at 10:38 AM. ( )

You picked out two sentences out of what I said earlier, and missed everything else. First- a ph of 7.5 onernight- does this sentence say to leave in TIDE overnight? NO Second- double the Tide concentration. This was an effort to push you into experimentation, thats all. None of this is theory. I will explain it this way. I made a comment earlier about neutralizing waste water from my employers plant. Lets say I am neutralizing 2000 gallons that afternoon. It might take 10 gallons of sodium hydroxide to reach the required ph for dumping. The majority of this 10 gallons is used just to get the ph up to 4.5. After 4.5, the ammount of NAOH required to bring the ph up 2 more points, is less than a gallon. Get it? NAOH can quickly overpower any solution, and ph's will soar! I just think Tide isnt worth the risk, and anyone using it is walking a tightrope.

tide..how much?

This response submitted by ronnie on 1/22/06 at 11:11 AM. ( ron51075@yahoo.com )

i have used KROWTAN about 10 times. i loved it and i hated it. why because of slipage. and why? was always a ? i asked ,the last caoe was fine? well i believe it is the tide! THE CONTANER OR THE PAPER INSTRUCTION DO NOT SAY HOW MUCH TIDE. so you have to guess, i don't like that. so now i use kemel-4 to wash after tan. no more problems. take as you will. just my thoughts.

your washing a cape

This response submitted by paul bunyan on 1/22/06 at 11:29 AM. ( )

Its just like a sweater, In about 3 gals of water use a small amount like what you would wash one shirt. Maybe a handful. if you had slppiage its because of your prep. krowtann will and has saved questionable hides.
does the box of clay tell you how much to use per eye?
It aint rocket science. (K-i-s-s keep it simple stupid). No Im not calling you stupid, its just a statemnet, I think Rittel said it if I remember right.

do you guess on the pickle amount?

This response submitted by ronnie on 1/22/06 at 11:38 AM. ( ron51075@yahoo.com )

why would you have to guess on that? do you on the pickle solution? or how about the salt in the rehydrating bath? NO so why on something as simple as a mixture to wash capes after KROWTAN? is it that in the test that the people of KROWTAN found out that differant cape sizes need differant amouts to clean yet not slip? i wounder sometimes.
all I AM SAYING IS THAT WASH HOW YOU WOULD LIKE, i am only washing in KEMEL-4. and no more problems. and i do like KROWTAN, i just hope it last on my mounts for years to come.


This response submitted by oldshaver on 1/22/06 at 5:59 PM. ( )

aldehydes and syn-tans, are not the same thing. Brain fart.

Well, I guess

This response submitted by heath cline on 1/22/06 at 6:47 PM. ( heath6799@yahoo.com )

I have really good balance walking that tightrope. I use 1/4 cap full of liquid tide to wash a cape for about 5-10 minutes after neutralizing and using Krowtann. Not a single problem after 150 deer capes. I respect your opinions and info but I just don't see it harming capes at my end. I cant' believe if it was that harmful, that I have not seen a problem yet.

in how much water

This response submitted by os on 1/22/06 at 8:36 PM. ( )

you might save somebody some problems here.

I use

This response submitted by heath cline on 1/22/06 at 9:29 PM. ( heath6799@yahoo.com )

I would say 2 gallons in my tub/sink. I leave it sit for 5-10 minutes,skin side out. Then wash skin side with tap water then wash hair side. Hang the cape,wring it out lightly and let hang to dry for 2 hours, just like Krowtann instruction call for. Then I will tumble for a short time, finish shaving and mount or freeze if you want to.

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