Junior Rocket Science 101 and Tide Products

Submitted by Glen Conley on 3/8/06 at 11:27 AM. ( g.conley@veriaon.net ) 70.104.113.95

Many moons ago there was a woman in this neck of the weeds (woods-all gone) that was going to make her fame and fortune raising and selling Samoyeds.

She produced an entire litter that had really bad over bites and could not sell them. The litter had reached a few months of age and had shown no adverse problems as a result of their poor bites.

She decided to clean them up and put them on SALE!

She got out her box of Tide, got them all wet down at once, and commenced to sudsing them up from behind the ears back.

Shortly thereafter, she had a litter of dogs with white, fluffy heads and pink, hairless bodies. Looked a lot like something you would have expected to see in a circus of the same vintage.

I was a young feller back then, and that left an indelible impression upon my susceptible young mind. My awarness of the chemical properties of sodium hydroxide came early in life.

Check out this link:
Sodium hydroxide MSDS
http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/SO/sodium_hydroxide.html

Any time you see those red labels depicting a hole being burned in a hand, you had better figure out that means the stuff that has that label will burn a hole in a hand, or an arm or a leg.

Now scroll on down to where it says:

Stability
You will see that it is incompatible with ammonium compounds (ammonium chloride is the common ingredient of dish liquids these days, they are no longer soaps, there are also other products that are made up of ammonium chloride salts being sold to the taxidermy trade as bactericides), acids (what are pickles made with?)and combustible organics. Heat of solution is very high and may lead to a dangerously hot solution if small amounts of water are used.

Tide Free Ultra Liquid contains sodium hydroxide

Liquid Tide
Ingredients/Chemical Name: Biodegradable surfactants (anionic and nonionic) and enzymes.

Notice the ENZYME word.

What is collectively refered to as "laundry enzymes" are enzymes that break down FATS and PROTEINS.
The dividing line between fats and oils can be awfully thin at times. A compound might be classed as a detergent if it can bond with a fat molecule at one end of it's molecule and bond with water at the other. In practical use, the fat could then be rinsed or floated away.

What are skins made of?

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OK, I'll bite

This response submitted by Doug Bridges on 3/8/06 at 12:16 PM. ( ) 12.40.253.155

Come on Uncle Glen,, give us the (as Paul Harvey would say) rest of the story.

You took us this far, we are breathing hard, so don't stop now.

Doug


Glen whats a good overall cleaning product to use in shop

This response submitted by paul e on 3/8/06 at 1:29 PM. ( amfpaul@bellsouth.net ) 70.156.89.232

something compatible with stop-rot and leaterizing acid for instance
the more you bring this stuff up the more im trying to be careful
stop-rot or not
maybe just plain water and a clean towel?

i need to clean what i can dogs follow me around after i belt sand skull caps sometimes
i used to think they were being friendly till one grabbed my pants and tried to drag me off
lmao


OK

This response submitted by Marc A on 3/8/06 at 2:38 PM. ( ) 206.138.130.2

OK, so Tide is bad, but some tanning produces instruct you to use Tide ?


somebody told me once,,,and I remembered

This response submitted by Mr.T on 3/8/06 at 3:27 PM. ( ) 64.31.6.254

The "loaded" part was what was pointed out on the destructive nature of the enzymes that were already present in the living functional system, but held in balance until the system dies.

Destruct cells surrounding follicles-hair falls out. Pretty simple. Faster than a speeding bacterium. Already there. No incubation period.

So tide will help eat up dead animals?


A stranger would say...

This response submitted by jrosbor on 3/8/06 at 3:32 PM. ( huntersdream3x@hotmail.com ) 64.73.36.192

I sit in my shop day after day working and I check this site now and then and here I find Glen still trying to drill us with the old skin is made of fat and proteins! Ummmmm... I am thinking of something else most all detergents have is SDS (can't think of the name off the top of my head) But this stuff will destroy all of the lipids in the skin! What are cells made of? or better yet, What are the cell membranes made of? How deep to hair roots go?

Glen, Your questions allways seem to make me think too hard!
You kids have fun!

Joe


the funny thing is...

This response submitted by Bill Yox on 3/8/06 at 5:18 PM. ( ) 67.138.9.156

...he has already come right out in previous posts and said that its not good with many tans, and this time is putting out the facts for us to decide. Kinda sums it all up, wouldnt you say? That Glen is one sharp one!


Glen's on the money

This response submitted by John W. on 3/8/06 at 5:25 PM. ( ) 12.215.62.206

Iwashed two different capes in an off brand laundry soap this year.When I went to put those babies togetherI had several areas of slippage,loose hair all over both mounts.I put a fan on both and they turned out fine.It wasn't until I read Glens article on chemical slippage before I realized what was going on.Both of these capes were fresh so I couldn't figure out what had gone wrong.I haven't washed anymore capes in the laundry det. went back to my capful of kemal4 and haven't had anymore problems.


So

This response submitted by Mike on 3/8/06 at 7:12 PM. ( ) 63.232.25.214

Sodium Hydroxide breaks down SKIN and HAIR which are fats and protiens? ? So that can't be good right?


Also

This response submitted by Mike on 3/8/06 at 7:19 PM. ( ) 63.232.25.214

I see that calcium hydroxide is sold for removing hair from any hide as a dehairing kit. So if sodium is salt and calcium is whatever it is, then the 2 share the common element hydroxide. Right? Still not good thing huh? LMAO


I thought we covered this a long time ago

This response submitted by oldshaver on 3/8/06 at 8:37 PM. ( ) 68.221.48.29

Are people still using tide? I tried to go back and look at some of my old posts on this topic, but they disappeared. Along with about 75% of the others. I guess the archives got a little too big, and a little fat had to be trimmed, or I stepped on too many toes.


I guess I am the one lucky person

This response submitted by heath cline on 3/8/06 at 10:30 PM. ( heath6799@yahoo.com ) 207.69.139.146

who does not have any problems with washing my capes in Tide. I am not saying it will never happen, but after 200 capes the last two years, I have yet to have a problem. Maybe I have some kind of " magic water" coming out of my well. After our last discussion on this I let a couple capes sit in the Tide wash for 40 minutes and still no problem.Normally I just wash the for 5-10 minutes. Maybe if I let them sit overnight I would see some slippage. But I don't see any reason to do that.
Maybe I am just the one exception to the rule.


Heath sheet. Heath ate sheet.

This response submitted by Glen on 3/9/06 at 9:32 AM. ( ) 70.104.113.95

One of the amazing things about the human mind is the way that it can twist the letters and words of the English language automatically. Some people would read the above line and dismiss it as nonsensial, while another person would read it and automatically start switching vowels so that they could derive a meaning from it. Which did you do?

Heath Smith sheet. Heath Smith ate sheet. Now we have a proper identification of Heath. Someone may have jumped to the conclusion that the Heath in the title was the Heath that is one of our own.

Try this:
Tide Free Ultra Liquid contains sodium hydroxide
Tide Free Ultra Liquid contains sodium hydroxide
Tide Free Ultra Liquid contains sodium hydroxide

Liquid Tide DOES NOT contain sodium hydroxide
Liquid Tide DOES NOT contain sodium hydroxide
Liquid Tide DOES NOT contain sodium hydroxide

Two different animals, like "dog". Chihuahua or Saint Bernard?

TIDE is a trade name, a number of products are sold under that lable.
TIDE is a trade name, a number of products are sold under that lable.
TIDE is a trade name, a number of products are sold under that lable.

I probably just screwed with someone's head by repeating lable three times instead of label. Why is table table instead of tabel? Did you ever wonder/wander about that?

Some of these marketing ad writers depend on people reading their own meaning into written instructions and uses. My favorite goes something like this: Cleans and disinfects non-porous surfaces! Counter tops, glass, ceramic tile.

Got mental images right away didn't you? Did you get the mental image of grout lines with the ceramic tile? Call the company up that uses a similar claim on their lablel/lable and ask them about grout lines. Those people that answer the phone have been drilled, the "canned speech" will be, "It has only been tested on non-porous surfaces." Might it be that the product is reactive with the compounds that make up grout?

In an earlier exchange between our Heath, not the sheet eater Heath, and oldshaver, our Heath pointed out that he used Liquid Tide. In his posting this time he did not identify WHICH Tide product he used, and since this IS being Archived, and I went to the trouble to do the homework to help someone else to be able to make better educated decisions, I want this going down on record.

Oldshaver had also done some homework on TIDE MSDS. If I remember right, there are 13 different products sold under the TIDE label/lable. ONE DID NOT contain sodium hydroxide.

The reason that I came up with the results I did was because I knew where to look. The reason I knew where to look was because I had been sent a skin sample that for all practical purposes had been pickled with formic acid. Acids are DIFFERENT. There is a reason they have different names, they're different. Formic acid pickled skins will be characteristic. The collagen bonds (fibers that make "leather")have been broken, and the proteins are re-arranged into clump-like structures. Once a person has actually seen this, it is readily recognized. I have a microphotography photo of such on hidetanning.net, but right off the top of my head, I don't remember the URL for the article. Regardless, the sample I received had a Swiss cheese look to the "clumped" places in the leather. One of those things that caused me to say, "What in thee Hell!?!" The piece had been washed in Liquid Tide. From past personal experiences, the only variable was the Liquid Tide, so I pulled up the MSDS for the product. That simple.

The sodium hydroxide issue had caused oldshaver to go on meds. He's better now, but believes space Ail Yuns are eating his past posts out of the Archives.

There's going to be some that say, "Well, I've been using Tide and no problems." Might well be, BUT there are a few variables here to consider.

The sodium hydroxide IS going to seek to balance it's self out in solution. It will react with the most reactive compound first. In this case, meaning animal skins, it would be the fat. Most specifically, it would be available tri-glycerides, which would start that saponification process that you read so much about. If the fats aren't present, it's going to look for something else, which could lead to the over basification that oldshaver was driving at in the past. Ironically, someone who is meticulous in their skin prep will be the most likely to have problems.

Joe's question above, "What are cells made of? or better yet, What are the cell membranes made of? How deep to hair roots go?" Answer, cell membranes=phospho-lipid membrane, translation, phosphorus on the outside and inside of the membrane, with saturated and unsaturated lipids in between. Lipids=fats. Hair roots are contained in the cellular layer that is over the collagen layer. In this same cellular layer there are cells found that are called fibroblasts.

The fibroblasts are what produces the three primary proteins that make up collagen. These three proteins, glysine, proline, and hydroxy-proline are arranged in a helical twist that makes them naturally enzyme resistant. You will also find them to be acid and alkali resistant to a degree (that can be almost literally on "degree"). That's part of the function in the living system. On going production of collagen by these cells is why older animals have thicker skins.

Mike, your thinking is on the right track. Sodium has many salt forms, but here we have that word problem again. We have been raised to pass sodium chloride at the table (better than passing gas). Calcium also has a number of salts. When either are in the hydroxide form, which is caustic, they are the most reactive with other compounds. When reacted, new compounds are formed. For example, reacting sodium hydroxide with fats can produce some stuff we call soap.

Doug, breathe in, breathe out.

Paul, I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you talking skins, or shop in general?

Marc, go with what the MANUFACTURER instructs.

Oldshaver, if you used the orange button to try and locate your past posts, and couldn't do so, you may well have been defaulted. The orange button works off a Google search function, but there is more than one Google Big Computer. During periods of high activity, surfers may be defaulted to secondary computers that may not have the total index of the main computer. That is why you may get different search returns with Google on the same day. Try this, go to Google and enter:

site:taxidermy.net

If you are on the main computer, you will get several returns. Use the search within results at the bottom of the page to locate what you are looking for.


well both

This response submitted by paul e on 3/9/06 at 11:09 AM. ( amfpaul@bellsouth.net ) 65.6.66.89

tell us your OPINION of a good shop cleaner
and also a good wash solution for capes in general
id like your opinion
i know i know it probably depends on what combination of chemicals
but if you could generalize enlighten(thats a big word for me) us
paul e

p.s. ive got a swamp deer save from stop rot ill be posting on
in a few days this is another good one Glen
extra long wire pig like hair from extreme south louisiana
ive been getting a few of these the last couple of years
paule


Your right Glen

This response submitted by oldshaver on 3/9/06 at 7:53 PM. ( ) 68.221.48.29

Yor dealing with a computer novice, at best. I knew I had posted more than the 88 times I saw last night.LOL Keep on posting, you provide some good reading material, and you settled that arguement me and Heath had going, a few months back.


Glen,

This response submitted by heath cline on 3/9/06 at 9:12 PM. ( heath6799@yahoo.com ) 207.69.137.22

as always you provide alot of good info ! Thanks.
Oh, and to answer your question. I use regular Liquid Tide, original scent.


Blah Blah Blah

This response submitted by Doug on 3/10/06 at 8:21 AM. ( ) 12.40.253.154

GLEN,

Make a point! I know you have provided OUTSTANDING information above. But help a chemically challenged brother out, and get to a point. I just read your post above, and whew, am I spent. But it leaves me thinking, what's Glen's point?

No Tide? No to 12 out of 13 Tide products?

Or is this just you, you chemical, mad scientist, genius you, having fun with our little, taxidermy, simple minded brains? Is that what you are doing?

I have to go lay down and rest now.

Doug


Doug, Doug, Doug,

This response submitted by Glen on 3/10/06 at 10:47 AM. ( ) 70.104.113.95

I done went and told ya once, breathe in, breathe out.

Did you read what the son of Mr. Yox wrote? You know, this part,"...he has already come right out in previous posts and said that its not good with many tans, and this time is putting out the facts for us to decide. Kinda sums it all up, wouldnt you say?" Yox's son does pretty good for a guy that attended a one room school house in Somewhere, New York.

You being a college educated feller and all, you're probably just trying to read some deep and powerful meaning into what I wrote. Don't need to, ain't the case. I've got a simple mind, so I have to break things down into their simplest form in order to understand. Complexity then is nothing but the sum total of simplicity, so all that simplicity just sounds complicated.

My simple mind tells me that mounts look best when they have hair on them. Simple thinking tells me not to do anything to the skin or hair that could cause the hair to come off. A common simple compound like sodium hydroxide, common in a number of household products, can cause the hair to come out when either reacted with a simple acid, or when in strong enough concentration in it's simplest form. It can make yer dawgs go naked.

All ya gotta do is learn some of these simple names, and what simple things they do, and then read the ingredients on a label/lable before jumping in.


see

This response submitted by wilson on 3/10/06 at 11:16 AM. ( ) 207.200.116.11

See Glen , when you typ real slow like that, i get it too.hehe


Whew,,,,,

This response submitted by Doug Bridges on 3/10/06 at 11:19 AM. ( doug@ddtaxidermy.com ) 12.40.253.155

Thanks Glen. You did have a point. I just needed you to bash me in the forehead with it.

Sodium hydroxide BAD!

See how easy that was? 3 simple words did the trick. You da man.

I will read the lables from now on.

So, in your (or so you think) simple way of speaking (writing), tell us, oh mad scientist genius, what in, your simple opinion, is the best WASH available to us taxidermistists today. And don't go pulling punches to be all politically correct and stuff. Tell us strait up. And another thing, don't go doing the well it depends on the prep, acid, salt this that and the other thing ramblings of a mad man, just give us YOUR gut talking recommendation.

It's buried so deep in this thread that no one except you and me are going to see it anyhoo.

Doug


ILL TAKE A PEEK if he goes for it

This response submitted by paul e on 3/10/06 at 1:27 PM. ( amfpaul@bellsouth.net ) 65.6.66.89

id like to know
plain water? and salt? for skin
just water for plain old cleaning?
im going to have to go lay down also
the suspense is killing me


Hey Glen ...What about Dawn?

This response submitted by Kevin on 3/14/06 at 3:48 PM. ( ) 204.185.164.236

The reason I ask this is that I had four capes that I didn't salt and dry before I pickled. I washed the first three in Dawn dishwashing soap the fourth I skipped this to hurry up and get it mounted. The first three slipped while washing with Dawn. The fourth one didn't.

All of these were caped out and frozen within hours after the kill. There should have been no bacteria problems.

I will probably salt two days and dry capes hard from now on.
(Even though many say it is uneccessary)

I just wondered if Dawn had sodium hydroxide in it. I checked the MSDS and didn't see it. Could Dawn be the reason 3 out of 4 slipped?


Kevin,

This response submitted by Glen on 3/14/06 at 11:09 PM. ( ) 70.104.122.241

here is a quote from what I had posted above:

Stability
You will see that it is incompatible with ammonium compounds (ammonium chloride is the common ingredient of dish liquids these days, they are no longer soaps, there are also other products that are made up of ammonium chloride salts being sold to the taxidermy trade as bactericides), acids (what are pickles made with?)and combustible organics. Heat of solution is very high and may lead to a dangerously hot solution if small amounts of water are used.

If you read your ingredients label/lable for Dawn, what do you see?


Kevin,

This response submitted by Glen on 3/14/06 at 11:33 PM. ( ) 70.104.122.241

this is on my personal favorite MSDS site:

http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/AM/ammonium_chloride.html


Thanks Glen,

This response submitted by Kevin on 3/15/06 at 10:03 AM. ( ) 204.185.164.236

I truly think that I may have had a reaction between the Dawn liquid and the pickling acid. I had noticed no slipping while in the pickle, and I had tried to handle these hides meticulously from the time of the kill.

The three capes that slipped all literally slipped while I was degreasing them in Dawn. Very frustrating! All the hard work was already done, and all I needed to do was tan and mount them.

I have read a lot of these posts and so far I can see no other place in the process that may have been the problem, other than the fact that I didn't salt and dry hard before I started the pickling. This combined with the dawn may have been the deadly combination.

Thanks again, Kevin


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