SMQ's Week #40 Enjoy all the free and invaluable information!
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Author Topic: SMQ's Week #40 Enjoy all the free and invaluable information!  (Read 5589 times)
Rick Krane
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« on: November 25, 2006, 10:46:22 PM »

SMQS Week 40!

Good evening from Camden ME. This week Im in ME visiting friends over the holiday and talking old time Taxidermy with old friends. SO for this Im grateful! I hope every one had a great Turkey day and all are safely home or will be.

Last week Dave Campbell generously gave away a fish head from his outstanding line of repro fish work. The winner of the bonus question was a new comer to the forums from AK Pooh! Way to go!!! In week to come we will go back to give away! SO keep reading!

If you want to answer 1 or all 10 of the question have at it! It is all for learning and fun for all of us! I thank you in advance for helping out so many of us including me!


 I thank you and WASCO for letting me share in my passion "FISH! As long as you keep answering the questions, I will keep writing them.

So with out further ado! Lets Get the morning stared to a new week with some fish taxidermy talk! The good people at WASCO give us the free opportunity here to share information so we can be better-informed taxidermist! So in the spirit of WASCO generosity we share freely with each other!

1. Can you lit a fish or two that has had a name change in that past 100 year in its classification Genus?

2. Ok You cast cold water fish heads for reasons of greasing and longevity but way would you cast warm water heads? Tell us why and some good reasons for taking warm water fish tom the nest level or why you wouldn't bother!

3. When caving your own fish bodies what are some of the important points of reference you need to know before carving?

4. Lets look at taking reference photos what are the important things to consider and what are the 5 shots you want to take and why?

5. When dealing with a Sliver or a chromer fish I.e.; steelhead or ocean run salmon, how do you deal with a soft scaled fish with the potential to loose lots of scales?

6. Do you thinner your paint and if so how much or what ratio do you use?

7.  What air pressure do you typically spray with?

8. How do you determine eye size when choosing your eye for your fish?

9. Are there 2 standards of fish taxidermy today? What are they, whats the difference and why?


Bonus Question
10. Can you name at least one trout that has gone extinct in North America?


 
It is all because of you and your awesome replies this has become so successful!
From beginners to the seasoned pro's every one contributes and all benefit from your great experiences! Let see if I we can get more responses on the forum as well as in my email. I will give you some free fish reference photos for the asking just for contributing!
As always I just think your answers are so good more and more contribute on here for all see!

My Best and have fun with this!

Rick Krane
Anglers Artistry
312 Chesterfield Rd
Hinsdale, NH 03451
603.336.7296
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Frank E. Kotula
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« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2006, 06:24:03 AM »

. Can you lit a fish or two that has had a name change in that past 100 year in its classification Genus?
Cod

2. OK You cast cold water fish heads for reasons of greasing and longevity but way would you cast warm water heads?
The main reason is no shrinkage to fix. You can see the difference in a cast head and one that is real and dried out even if you rebuild it.

Tell us why and some good reasons for taking warm water fish tom the nest level or why you wouldn't bother!
For one it's the shrinkage which is probally the main reason I do it plus time in repair work.

3. When caving your own fish bodies what are some of the important points of reference you need to know before carving?
Where the skin meets the scales, all fin location! that is top. Your high points and low points.

4. Lets look at taking reference photos what are the important things to consider and what are the 5 shots you want to take and why?
I like the head for coloration and what is going on in the metallic areas.
Fins very important
Spot patterens
Inside the mouth
and one full view of the fish.

5. When dealing with a Sliver or a chromer fish I.e.; steelhead or ocean run salmon, how do you deal with a soft scaled fish with the potential to loose lots of scales?
I like to salt my fish for a period of time to aid in holding the scales in. Salt draws moisture out and sets the scales till you rehydrate it in cool water.

6. Do you thinner your paint and if so how much or what ratio do you use?
I have no ratio and it's what I show my students. This is only because of water base paints not lacquer which is done different. With water humidity does play a part in what I do and how it dries faster or slower.

7.  What air pressure do you typically spray with?
33psi

8. How do you determine eye size when choosing your eye for your fish?
I measure the iris not the whole eye socket

9. Are there 2 standards of fish taxidermy today?
Commercial
High Quality
 What are they, whats the difference and why?
Commercial fish are really put together any ole way as long as it looks fatter than caught and in reality if it looks like a fish then it's that fish. The quality of the paint job is poor for there are no real colors uses to make up the real color of the fish it's just a quick paint schedule and it's done. You know you get a book that tells you how to paint a fish in twenty minutes LOL. I used to do that now I take that long to just to apply one color.
Next to that it's the seam work and fin placement. Who cares what the seam looks like, so what if I have a 1 to a 2 inch gap in the back of my fish.
No shrinkage fixed or very little epoxy work is done.

A high quality fish will have none of the above. It will be a hand carved body to fit the fish properly. You will see no gap in the back or a 1/16 gap for or caused by drying. Seams are hand sewn, epoxy work where needed, metalics added where needed and not just put there. proper spot patterns. Paint job when completed will approx take 8 hours but the fish will look outstanding.


Bonus Question
10. Can you name at least one trout that has gone extinct in North America?
Yes I can Rick but you've showed and told me this so here is is :Sunapee
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Frank E. Kotula
http://www.FranksWildlifeStudio.com
one on one classes 570-819-0391
All phases of taxidermy
GregStehlingandSons
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Montana Bull Trout Reproduction


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« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2006, 06:32:03 AM »

1. Can you lit a fish or two that has had a name change in that past 100 year in its classification Genus?
n/a

2. Ok You cast cold water fish heads for reasons of greasing and longevity but way would you cast warm water heads? Tell us why and some good reasons for taking warm water fish tom the nest level or why you wouldn't bother!

We do not cast heads on warmwater because we feel with proper procedure followed it looks fine and will last a long time.
A couple of reasons for casting would be faster turnaround because of less dry time, as well as not needing to rebuild shrinkage.

3. When caving your own fish bodies what are some of the important points of reference you need to know before carving?

We take one girth measurement and trace the fish, but for a beginner the more measurements the better.Any dips and fin placement should be noted.

4. Lets look at taking reference photos what are the important things to consider and what are the 5 shots you want to take and why?

I would take as many shots as possible.

Head
fins
tail
close up of mid section
mouth detail

5. When dealing with a Sliver or a chromer fish I.e.; steelhead or ocean run salmon, how do you deal with a soft scaled fish with the potential to loose lots of scales?

If their really bad, I would recommend scaling the entire fish after skinning and fleshing. If the scales are fairly tight, I would salt the fish when half frozen and let salt work overnight.

6. Do you thinner your paint and if so how much or what ratio do you use?

We do not thin our paints, we want the full power punch of colors!

7.  What air pressure do you typically spray with?

90 psi :o

8. How do you determine eye size when choosing your eye for your fish?

Measure the eye socket for beginners, we simply eyeball it( pun intended)

9. Are there 2 standards of fish taxidermy today? What are they, whats the difference and why?

Depends on how you look at it. There are many quality levels, but the market will tell you if your doing it right. If your making a living and people are paying you for your work- you are at the right level.
The big difference is TIME.
We feel we offer a quality product. I would love to see were other taxidermists classify our work.


Bonus Question
10. Can you name at least one trout that has gone extinct in North America?
n/a

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Trapperr
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« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2006, 06:34:02 AM »

thank you, very good info
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UFD
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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2006, 04:30:44 PM »

1.  Both Rainbow Trout and coastal Cutthroat Trout have had their genus classification changed, and that has been even more recent than the last 100 years.  Through genetic electrophoresis, it has been surmised that the five Pacific Salmon and the anadromous Rainbow and Cutthroat trout have key genetic similarities to be considered very closely related.  So, with Rainbow Trout, Salmo gairdneri became Oncorynchus mykiss (the mykiss part comes from the vernacular name they were called in Russia, and were also scientifically noted in Russia first), and Salmon clarki became Oncorhynchus clarki.

2.  I like to use cast heads for warm water fish to eliminate having to rebuild the massive shrinkage that takes place, shortened drying time of the fish, elimination of any oil problems or problems with leaving a relatively high degree of material that could attract bugs, and overall accuracy of the piece.  I find all these reasons valid enough that it is my choice to use a cast head more often than not, and even more often in the future.

3.  I personally like to look at all of the fins as points of reference since anatomy changes occur at the their insertion, and of equal importance to me is the lateral line and muscle layout within the body.  I think that the knowledge I have gained studying how the musculature works in conjunction with the skeleton of the fish has improved my insight on carving a body as compared to when I carved bodies without that knowledge.

4.  I usually think I am taking too many photos of a particular fish and then I realize afterward that I didnt take the right ones LOL!  Honestly I really dont have a system of taking reference pictures, but if I could go back and do all of them the right way, Id take one of the side of the head, one of the entire side of the fish, one of the mouth, one of the top of the fish, and one of the bottom of the fish.  For large fish I might additionally break the side into at least two and maybe three segments for better resolution.

5.  Some chrome fish will lose very few scales and some will lose a large percentage, mostly depending upon how close the fish is in its cycle to a spawning run, and hormone levels further define that.  I like to put borax over the slime to help glue down the edges and then keep that substance on the skin while skinning and fleshing.  I wait until the skin is completely fleshed before washing everything off the skin.  I dont have too many issues with drastic scale loss, most likely because the chrome fish that I see are of the size to be at the point in their life cycle to be preparing for a spawning run and are therefore beginning to toughen up.  Only a few times have I had to remove the remainder of the scales in order to make the mount turn out acceptable, but I have also dealt with fish that have been scaled by a customer.  In those cases scale painting is very much worth it.

6.  I thin paint on a case-by-case basis, which can depend upon how old it is some times.  Fresh batches of lacquer paint I rarely need to thin unless for special circumstances.  I may also thin to make a less intense color when I want to apply very light tinting, and in that case I may just thin it with clear gloss rather than thinner.  I have no set percentages or ratios, mostly a seat-of-the-pants approach to what I need for the moment.

7.  This is another seat-of-the-pants situation, but most of the time my air pressure is around 25-35 lbs.

8.  Determining the eye size for a fish is most easily done by measuring the iris or colored part of the eye, but you have to be careful because different eye manufacturers measure their eyes differently.  The sclerotic capsule needs to be considered separately from the iris size, but some include it as part of the eye size.  It is best to have some sample sizes on hand from different manufacturers in order get a good representation of what to use.  It is worthwhile to also know different species of the same physical size can have different sized eyes.

9.  For some time there has been two standards of competition work and commercial work.  Theoretically it would be nice if there were no dividing line between the two, but in reality there is.  This division is primarily because very few clients are willing or able to pay for someones very best efforts.  In some ways I think that it is beneficial to take advantage of that fact by using your competition efforts as research and development of techniques that can then be transferred to your work on a commercial level (which may require a price increase).  Problems can arise from that practice for both the fish taxidermy customer and the fish taxidermist because the fish taxidermist is many times prone to advertise their competition success without explaining that they are not able to provide that level of quality at their commercial price level.  I guess if I would have to state my preference, it would be to attempt to blur the line to the point that I could take my commercial work, which I have been paid for at my normal commercial price, and to enter it into competition and get "satisfactory" results.  At least that would be my goal, anyway.  :-\

10.  In deference to Ricks studies, Ill list the Sunapee Trout also.  (Which is actually a char.)  Another char that is worth mentioning is the Bull Trout.  It is not completely extinct as a species, but has had many individual populations go extinct and is in real trouble in the Pacific Northwest.
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Dave Smith
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« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2006, 06:27:28 PM »

Good answers! since no one has listed a true trout for #10, I'll chime in with the Yellowfin Ctthroat of Colorado. There is also the Silver Trout of New Hampshire. A few others that are close or were thought to be extinct at one time are Alvord and Bonneville Cutthroats, and another char that fits this description is the Aurora Trout. When I first started reading about Aurora trout, they were thought to be extinct and have since been rediscovered and saved somewhat.cool On Bull trout luckily, there are a few habitats in which they are thriving so that helps make up for the many in which they are not.    Dave
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Mark V.
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« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2006, 08:04:24 PM »

1. Can you lit a fish or two that has had a name change in that past 100 year in its classification Genus? 
Maybe can explain this one in more detail don't understand.

 2. Ok You cast cold water fish heads for reasons of greasing and longevity but way would you cast wrm water heads? Tell us why and some good reasons for taking warm water fish tom the nest level or why you wouldn't bother!  I do on some warmwater species. Trying to do more of it for shrinkage purposes and it speeds up drying time as you only have to wait for the skin to dry.

3. When caving your own fish bodies what are some of the important points of reference you need to know before carving?
 Learning shapes of various species and curvatures of the specimen would be real important.  Learning to make the curve desired without making one side flater than the other is also a important factor in fish carving.

4. Lets look at taking reference photos what are the important things to consider and what are the 5 shots you want to take and why? Mouth interior, Eye closeup,topview,fin closeup and coloration would be 5 most important points of reference for taking photos.

5. When dealing with a Sliver or a chromer fish I.e.; steelhead or ocean run salmon, how do you deal with a soft scaled fish with the potential to loose lots of scales? When skinning always lay them flat. With your skinning knife always skin towards the head to avoid scale popping. I usually put fine salt on the show side and let it sit for one hour or denatured alcohol applying before skinning. Its hard to keep the scales on chromers but if all else fails scale the entire fish.


6. Do you thinner your paint and if so how much or what ratio do you use? I do use thinner in my paint adding a little at a time to avoid over thinning.

7.  What air pressure do you typically spray with? 35-40 lbs.

8. How do you determine eye size when choosing your eye for your fish? I install all eyes after mounting just kind of fitting as I go.

9. Are there 2 standards of fish taxidermy today? What are they, whats the difference and why?  Definitely. Commercial standard work and competition quality art type pieces.


Bonus Question
10. Can you name at least one trout that has gone extinct in North America? Silver Trout, Salvelinus agassizi, New Hampshire, 1930s,Yellowfin Cutthroat Trout, Oncorhynchus clarki macdonaldi, Colorado, 1910 ,Alvord Cutthroat Trout, Oncorhynchus clarkii sspp., Nevada, Oregon, 1940 I went to the North American extinct list ot find my answers was unaware there were so many extinct species. Very sad On a lighter note there was a fish called a Harelip sucker. Wonder what that fish looked like LOL.

 
« Last Edit: November 26, 2006, 08:18:13 PM by Mark V. » Logged
Ken D
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« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2006, 09:44:55 PM »

Sorry so late...renovating and its killing me!

Thanks Rick...great questions this week...this is the best thing since Breakthrough!

1. Can you lit a fish or two that has had a name change in that past 100 year in its classification Genus?
A notable one would be the rainbow troutalso coastal cutthroat and I think goldens as well but Id have to do some homework on that one.

2. Ok You cast cold water fish heads for reasons of greasing and longevity but way would you cast warm water heads? Tell us why and some good reasons for taking warm water fish tom the nest level or why you wouldn't bother!
If you are casting from a fresh specimen, there is nothing to rebuildit is an exact positive of the real fish and not your interpretation.

3. When caving your own fish bodies what are some of the important points of reference you need to know before carving?
Fin location, caudal peduncle W/H/taper

4. Lets look at taking reference photos what are the important things to consider and what are the 5 shots you want to take and why?
Overall for coloration, spots and patterns, fins, interior of the mouth, head and a top or bottom view.

5. When dealing with a Sliver or a chromer fish I.e.; steelhead or ocean run salmon, how do you deal with a soft scaled fish with the potential to loose lots of scales?
I put the fish in denatured alcohol for about 10 minutes and then park it in front of a fan for about the same. Works pretty well.

6. Do you thinner your paint and if so how much or what ratio do you use?
I usually do thin my paintsmoreso on detail paints of course. General paint application gets thinned but as to how much, it really depends a lot on the viscosity of the paint from the container. I like an almost 2% milk consistency.

7.  What air pressure do you typically spray with?
About 35 PSI general paint application and 18 20 detail.

8. How do you determine eye size when choosing your eye for your fish?
First I trust the actual fish as the best reference. In general,  I select a size with an iris smaller that the socketenough so that I can rebuild the visible portion of the sclera and maintain a proper ball in socket look.

9. Are there 2 standards of fish taxidermy today? What are they, whats the difference and why?
Im not sure that is the case in the sense that some may think. When one says fish taxidermy, its pretty hard to include competition quality as a standard as I am sure will be suggested. Although there are a lot of great folks who do it, its just not that common that someone would put  true comp quality effort into everyday work. Even so, to imply a standard, whether commercial, competition or other would suggest that there were  industrywide marks on the wall that just dont exist. So to sum it up IMHO, the only standards (if there are in fact 2) are good and bad and the only true interpretation of each is in the eye of the beholder (customer)!
Let me go a little deeper on this issue. The "industry standards" are not neccesarily ours to determine as much as we would like otherwise. What is desired or acceptable to our clientele becomes the standard. As taxidermists, we envision two standards as competition and commercial...that is our perception, not neccesarily the public in general. For every one taxidermist that knows taxidermy competition standards, there are 5 who have no clue what that means, yet are very busy throughout the year. Their standard might not meet ours, and yet the customer is delighted! For every 1 that is at the pinnacle of his craft in taxidermy competition, there are 5 who are at differing levels below that...so what level is the standard for the "competition standard"? I stick to my argument that good and bad at the descretion of the customer. As long as we strive to give the customer the best product we possibly can and do not misrepresent our abilities, we have done our job.
This could be a heavily debated subject.



Bonus Question
10. Can you name at least one trout that has gone extinct in North America?

Probably the most notable is the silver trout.several othersAlvordsetc. 
« Last Edit: November 26, 2006, 10:03:47 PM by fishwork » Logged

Monty Artrip
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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2006, 08:03:18 AM »

1. Can you lit a fish or two that has had a name change in that past 100 year in its classification Genus?

2. Ok You cast cold water fish heads for reasons of greasing and longevity but way would you cast warm water heads? Tell us why and some good reasons for taking warm water fish tom the nest level or why you wouldn't bother! I feel that as I become more confident casting heads I will use them on warmwater fish also mainly to produce a better product with less time than rebuilding.

3. When caving your own fish bodies what are some of the important points of reference you need to know before carving? Scale lines and fin locations mainly. Also head junction area.

4. Lets look at taking reference photos what are the important things to consider and what are the 5 shots you want to take and why? Inside mouth, head, entire fish, front and back half. Pics should help for painting and anatomy, although anatomy is obviously not true unless you are taking underwater pics.

5. When dealing with a Sliver or a chromer fish I.e.; steelhead or ocean run salmon, how do you deal with a soft scaled fish with the potential to loose lots of scales? I generally salt them if begging and pleading to do a repro fails lol.

6. Do you thinner your paint and if so how much or what ratio do you use? I can't say I use an exact ratio as I look more for correct viscosity.

7.  What air pressure do you typically spray with? Usually 28-30, maybe a little lower for dtails if spitting,etc.

8. How do you determine eye size when choosing your eye for your fish? Measure iris.

9. Are there 2 standards of fish taxidermy today? What are they, whats the difference and why? Sure there are. There is commercial and high-end. The difference is how the fish is mounted and appearance. Commercial could be store bought body, eyes, etc. High end would be carved body, hand painted eyes, correct anatomy and coloration. Even though I just recently started carving bodies, I see the importance of correct anatomy. Anyone can carve a body and make a fish fit on it, but it doesn't neccessarily make it right.


Bonus Question
10. Can you name at least one trout that has gone extinct in North America? Sunnapee

 
It is
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Brian W
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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2015, 02:19:00 PM »

Good information I enjoyed reviewing........that's what is so valuable about this site.
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JL
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« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2015, 05:12:17 PM »

#10..in New Hampshire the Sunapee Trout and in Maine, the Blueback trout although there are some who claim they have recently caught one. Need to see it. JL
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Do one thing better than others and let others do their thing.....JL
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