Neutralizing Tell Me Why

I believe that what I think they call a curl test is what they use to determine if something is tanned or not. I believe that the hide is heated up to a certain temp. and how it reacts lets you know. I never really paid much attention to how to go about doing that, because I was satisfied with the end result of what I was producing, so I just accepted that it was preserved either by turning into leather or some other chemical means that I felt was suitable to the outcome I was looking for. Tanning is a form of preservation as well.

 

I remember this came up in the tanning section many moons ago and if I'm remembering correctly, the consensus, by true tanning experts, was that the only way to truly tell was the curl test or maybe it was called the shrink test, anyway, to heat it up until it did something that showed it to be tanned. Even then, an experienced taxidermist posed the question; Is the test 100% accurate and I seem to remember that the answer was Fairly accurate. He then posed the question; if a mount lasts a lifetime or more and it's not actually tanned, what difference does it make? And that is the question that led me to the conclusion that I will use a product that does what I want it to, follow the instructions and trust that the makers new what they were doing and if it's not truly tanned but acts the same as a truly tanned hide, what difference does it make? My DP'd mounts still look as good as my tanned mounts from the same era, well over twenty years ago.

 

Bless your 13 Point. I've asked that question for 60 years and have yet to get an answer that satisfied me. As Keith said even the paint on seem to hold the test of time. Glen Conley and I talked at length about this.our suppositionwas that once neutralized, perhaps the cell structures to become "thirsty" to receive the tanning acids. That was the best we could do. You just have to wonder why you would take a hide to 1.0 then raise it to 7.0 and then introduce it to and acid solution of 4.5 or lower. I was never as concerned of acid burn as I was about acid swell.

 

What's crazy is all the arguments over DP vs Tan and nobody even really knows if something's really even tanned.

 

I'm not an expert by any stretch but if I'm not mistaken different tanning agents are attracted to different Ph levels. I an not going to argue that what works for you is wrong but if a company puts out a tanning agent and in the directions it says to neutralize, and to so use baking soda, they likely aren't making any money for that part so I suggest that you do it. They must have or had a valid reason for telling you to do it.
I don't remember the specifics on judging a state of tan but 2 folks that use to post a lot here were old shaver and hudson, if you can contact them, they may help you answer your question.

 

The short answer is you can't tell if it's tanned or not just by look and feel (stretch, softness etc.). The only way I know of is the test I posted earlier, but who wants to do that on every hide?

I wouldn't worry too much about it. I think you're good on what is working for you.

 

Your best way of knowing if it’s tanned or not ( ok we have the boil test) but under a microscope will show you how the cell structure has changed.
Both Steve R and Abrey have shown this either in breakthrough magazine and on FB. I don’t remember seeing it on here but that’s how I would say if it’s tanned or not by that way.
That’s the only method I can come up scientifically

 

How do you send a PM I cannot figure this thing out since they change the format

 

Frank, that's what the test was that I had learned about here, thanks I'd forgotten.
I'd venture to say that you could just as well skip the tan step. Why not try that. A pickled cape is preserved and once dry will likely be stable, for our purposes. We are not continuously flexing and moving the skin once it is mounted and dry so flexibility isn't really needed is it?
I normally question most things, so I appreciate your point 13 point but when it comes to using products such as tans, I will follow the directions. It doesn't cost much more and doesn't take much time to do but if your way works for you by all means, I won't argue.

 

I get what you are saying, I was just posing a question as to why skip one step but not another when the instructions state to do both. I've never Dp'd any mammal but have seen mounts done by others, that do, that a trained eye has a hard time telling if it was tanned or not and those are not oiled. I don't know the answer and ain't real sure that there is a definitive one. I've just in the last few years started tanning more on my stuff in house.

 

Hit or click on the persons name.
A box comes up with their profile, then hit start a conversation. There’s your pm

 

Thank you Frank just now kind of starting to figure it out a little bit

 

Didn't check for a few days and this thread got good discussion. yes, as others have said, a boil test is what is used to check the completeness of the tan/dress. We don't do it in our industry, but the leather industry does constantly on batch samples, their product end use is not static, it needs to hold up to wear and the environment.

A lot of people refer to a pickled skin as acid tanned. It isn't tanned because the structure has not been changed, but it is preserved because the acid has basically dissolved the non tannable proteins that will get putrid/rot over time. Removing the fats is the most important of all since they will oxidize and become fatty acids that will continue to degrade the fibers over time.

You hear the term acid rot, and it's normally blamed on the residual acids from the tan, but from my experience the acids from the oxidized fats left in a skin are more devastating. Bears are a good example. When you see a bear skin that is cracking and tearing, acid rot, where is the first place it goes bad? Typically it's the paws. Unless the claws and toes are stripped off there is always fat that can not be removed mechanically down in there. That fat is also so much heavier that chemical de-greasing is not going to get the job completely done.

Thin skins like red fox and coyote are pretty simple. They do have fat in the fibers, but it is easily removed with a good de-greasing. Once the fibers of the skin are "clean" because of the pickling, and you add an oil back in as a lubricant, the fibers break fairly easy leaving you a soft skin.

On heavier skins, the change that takes place during tanning will make them soften much easier and remain so.

A clean pickled skin will work fine for a wall hanger, and stored properly last for a long time. If you have any fat or meat that was not removed completely it can becomea target for bugs.

 

Ok, I have a question, had some dry tanned skins for lifesize. Trapper tanned wall hangers.
Rehydrated wolves in water with a little salt. One wolf would tear if stretched much in the back legs. The other the face was tender in the lips and eye lids and would just tear apart.
Two red fox, both were rehydrated in just plain cold water per tannery guys instructions. Both animals would just tear if I tried to stretch, especially in the area around the rump and back legs. One leg literally tore off it was so weak.
What caused these issues. I figured it was acid rot but reading this it appears to not be the case.
Thanks, Jim