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Acid Swell

Discussion in 'Tanning' started by pigsrus, May 6, 2009.

  1. pigsrus

    pigsrus New Member

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    It sounds like I have a couple whitetail hides with "Acid Swelling" based on the info I have been reading on this forum. These hides after tanning with either McKenzie Tan or Liqua Tan have little to no stretch and respond to stretching like rubber. I also read rock salt might be part of the problem. I used rock salt that is made for cattle feeding. I have read it will not disolve in the pickle or allow the hide to rehydrate. Is this a solid cause for the problem I have?

    I tan as follows:
    1) remove red meat and turn lips, ears, eyes
    2) salt with rock salt for 24-36 hours
    3) pickle for three days at a pH of 1.0 - 2.0 mixed with 1 pound of rock salt per gallon of water
    4) nuetralize with 3 gallon of water and 3 tbs of baking soda for 45 to 60 minutes - no pH test
    5) drip dry for 30 minutes then wrap in towel to remove excess moisture for about an hour
    6) brush on either McKenzie Tan or Liqua Tan for 12 hours
    7) wash with dawn dish soap and mount

    Method has worked 99% of the time but why has it failed recently? I do not check the pH in the neutralizing solution. Could this be part of the problem?

    Can I salvage these hides?

    I mounted one a few years ago with the same issue but had trouble keeping the skin down around the eyes. Wanted to pop up due to the rubbery texture.

    If I can salvage these hides, what do I need to do?

    If the rock salt is part of the issue, what type of salt am I suppose to use? Where do you get it?

    Is rock salt fine for salting the hide in step two above?

    Thanks in advance for the help.
     
  2. D.Price

    D.Price Well-Known Member

    You need to use cattle grade mixing salt. You can get it at your local feed store.
     

  3. It also could be your water. Sometimes the water company changes formulas.
     
  4. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Sometimes it truly amazes me some of the things I read on here.
     
  5. Now, now George, we all need help from time to time. LOL
    I'd stay away from the course salt. Get yourself some hide salt or go to your local Super market and get some cheap cooking salt from there for your tan mixes etc. Disolves quickly. make sure it is plain salt with no additives.
     
  6. bill@hogheaven

    bill@hogheaven New Member

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    You need some salt in all your solutions nuetralizing, washing etc. 1/4 # per Gal will suffice. You pickle needs 1# per gal.
     
  7. R.J. Meyer II

    R.J. Meyer II Member

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    60 minutes in the baking soda ??????????????????? Isn't that a bit long ?
     
  8. muscle20

    muscle20 New Member

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    As I have mentioned before, anytime a skin is subjected to acid, salt has got to be present to prevent acid swell ! once this happens to a skin it is useless, garbage, Irreversibly damaged . Safety factor - SALT !
     
  9. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Hudson, I had a lifesize axis deer hide blow up on me in a neutralizing bath because I DIDN'T add salt. I talked with Bruce Rittel and he told me that was my culprit. Don't know for sure, but I'll take the advice of someone who does this for a living.
     
  10. bill@hogheaven

    bill@hogheaven New Member

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    The salt stays in.
     
  11. Rhino

    Rhino Too many irons in the fire will put the fire out!

    This is my opinion, and I have said it before.

    THERE IS NO SUCH THING, AS ACID SWELL!

    Its ALL OSMOTIC SWELL! Without salt, or enough of it, a skin, IN ANY GIVEN SOLUTION, will "swell", or get rubbery.

    The tans and oils used, for TRUE leather tanning, a very resistant to swelling, because they dont care sooo much about stretch. A TRUE leather tannage, is trying to fill all the "voids" in the collegen structure, by tanning, and re-tanning again!

    Taxidermy tanning, is much different, in this perspective. WE, in Taxidermy tanning, have no desire to fill in all the "voids", by "stacking" tannage, opon tannage, to fill them.

    WE desire, to, tan the skin structure, and oil it, but we have to leave the small(microscopic) voids to allow the skin to stretch. We dont want them filled!

    To make a long story short, a skin that is tanned for Taxidermy, will STILL swell, even after it has been tanned! The tannage for OUR capes, is NOT as resistant to water, and requires salt, to prevent osmotic swell. Thats just a fact of life.

    I hope someone understands this? Acid isnt the culprit.
     
  12. Larry B

    Larry B New Member

    Well put OS.. I was watching for you to chime in on one of your favorite subjects. Now how about KT??? while you are on a roll.
     
  13. pigsrus

    pigsrus New Member

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    Thanks to all the responses. I appreciate the advice and opinions.

    Sorry to ask silly questions George, some of us are still trying to learn something we enjoy. Maybe we will all be as smart as you one day.
     
  14. Bruce_Rittel

    Bruce_Rittel Consultant Services

    Absolutely get rid of the "Rock Salt"! It contains too many minerals that interfere with the chemicals you are trying to use for tanning! That can cause problems! Even a color change in the Tan!

    Do not neutralize so long before tanning or applying the paint-ons! 20-30 minutes is sufficient - longer is detrimental and could weaken the epidermis! And due to the long period of soak you use - yes - acid swelling will occur! Neutralization before the tan is only intended to raise the pH of the piece slightly - not completely neutralize it throughout.
     
  15. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Pigsrus, I, possibly better than most, understand a thirst for knowledge, but knowledge should start at home. This site had a poor search engine compared to the OLD forums (at the top of the page) but most questions such as yours, especially for beginners and new guys have been answered a multitude of times . . . if only people would look before they type.

    But ACTUALLY, I wasn't addressing your post as many of the things you did were correct while a few of them led you to your problems. THAT is what the forum is for and it worked well in your case. The REAL issue I was addressing was the one about the water companies changing the "recipe" for their water. That's a new one on me as the FDA applies rather stringent requirements on "city water" to include mineral content as well as pH. And if you were using a well of your own, that's a whole nuther matter. Still, in the years that I've been doing this, if you follow the proper steps, the WATER has been the last ingredient one needed to concern themselves with.
     
  16. pigsrus

    pigsrus New Member

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    Thanks for clearing that up George.

    I will change the following:
    1) Go back to fine rock salt (1lb per gallon of water) - American Stockman is the brand I can get from Tractor Supply. It is 95% pure by label but does include YPS (anti caking agent). This is the type I have used for 10 years with no trouble but two years ago had to start using United Salt Corp rock salt due to the loss of a local distributor. Visually the American Stockman is much more fine. No issues with rubbery hides prior to switching salt types.
    2) Shorten the length of neutralization to 20 - 30 minutes.

    I'm on city water and have been for three years. The water is very hard so I assume the correct salt would be more critical now than every.

    Thanks.
     
  17. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    You really need to ditch the rock salt. That 5% is enough to throw everything akilter sometimes. For the price of regular salt, it's not worth it. I use regular salt off the shelf. I bought a 25 pound bag of "ultra fine bakers salt" at the local grocery for less than $8. It dissolves very quickly and is absolutely clean of impurities.