What is your take ?

You work towards a goal, but are judged against a "level of quality or attainment." The goal remains the same, make your mount as lifelike as it was. The level of quality that a mount is judged against does not remain the same, or doesn't seem to to me. It's a function of many things, but I agree Bill, a high bar gets us to jump higher.
Best, Scott

 

I believe it was Tim who described that higher bar, not me. He deserves that credit.

"You work towards a goal, but are judged against a "level of quality or attainment." The goal remains the same, make your mount as lifelike as it was."

I still maintain that THIS IS the standard I keep referring to.

 

Many have compared taxidermy competitions to sporting events. Ok, lets go there. Many of you know my sons both compete on a world scale in the sports of weight lifting. They have won countless events, BUT the Goal has not been achieved yet. What is the goal? Winning an event? Not Hardly. The Goal is NEW NATIONAL and WORLD RECORDS.

IE............a NEW STANDARD.

So they train daily with the goal in mind.


Until an entry at a taxidermy competition is breathing, there is still room for improvement. No-one has achieved that goal yet.

 

Tim I like you man but that don't hold water. I give you for instants, you seen my deer at the AIT show I scored a 89 in the masters the other guy got a 90 but I won the McKenzie award voted on by the competitor's, Soooooooooo then my competitors said my deer was the best in there but the judge said it was not. So who set the standard? It look like the one in charge of judging the deer.

 

Bill, did you read that? And THAT is exactly why THERE IS NO STANDARD! Any time an ideology is in a state of flux, BY DEFINITION there is no "standard". When I mount an animal, it's based on MY interpretation of a generic ideal specimen. Otherwise, my deer would look like yours- or worse, yours would look like mine.

Just like applying a numerical "grade" to a piece, the word "standard" has been bastardized to the point where it allows guys like the one Doug refers to excuse their ineptness.

Now Studmuffin, NOWHERE have I implied that I don't think there should be a hierarchy in quality required. In the ideal world, state fairs, state taxidermy competitions, regional competitions, Nationals, and WTC SHOULD be in ascending order of quality and artistry to be given awards. Utopia is a dream however. Some state shows have actually boasted about about having "tougher judging" than WTC shows. So we don't even have "standards" for standards within our industry.

 

Let's take George's analogy of a test, but this time it's all essays, not abcd scantron. The goal is 100 percent of the possible points that can be awarded, a perfect score. Grading can seem just as arbitrary to the students as some folks think judging of taxidermy can be. So many ways to evaluate the quality of an essay, and one person isn't going to necessarily see it the same as another. After grading, scores are given, students' performances ranked, and that's that.

What do those scores represent, the opinion of someone put in the position to provide one, someone we hope has the qualifications to levy a good opinion, based on their knowledge of things that are not opinion and their exposure and experience. Things like points off for spelling can be numerically justified within a defined system, but style and content cannot be scored as systematically. Those things we leave to the evaluation of the hopefully "competent" authority.

When there is a changing of the guard, grading of that same test will likely change as well. Different experiences and values come into play. This will alter the expectations of the students as a new standard is set. Additionally, if the test remains the same, future students will probably catch on, and as the gouge spreads, essays will improve too. This will alter the expectations of the teachers and a new standard may be imposed.

One difference, of course, what do you compare an essay against?? At least in taxidermy we have "the animal", right? Wrong, we have "the animals," every one unique, just as we are. Injuries, mutations, disease, all very real. There is so much in question as to whats possible with the anatomy of the creatures we work on, in addition to all the individual variation. So what are we left with, to make comparisons to? We have a judge's interpretation of nature within the scope of his/her knowledge and experience. It's the same as the test.

This is why I promote the fish challenge, it's so much more specific. Closer to scantron than all essay. But I do see that as a limitation to creative achievement as well, because that's not it's purpose.

In the end, who gets the most votes at the beauty patent, the elephant man or the model? The goal may be nature, but the standard seems to be beauty.

Best, Scott

 

I mount my deer to my standards, not Bill standards. And the $200.00 dollar guys that just put the skin over a foam with no glue and put play do in the ear butts. and dos 200 deer a year, that is there standard. So I still like to know WHO is going to set this STANDARD. I know who sets it at the world show, but he owns it, LOL

 

Doug, I like you too man, but don't ask questions where my answer might cause you to not like me. LOL.

I will however give you an example from this past WTC. A competitor in the PRO division received a Third on his entry. He was pissed. Told me he won BOC at his state show. Couldn't understand his third place ribbon. I did.

Remember that part about doing a walk about. Judges canvas the room and take note of the mounts that catch their attention, which begs for closer inspection. Many mounts have "curb appeal" that makes you want to look closer. Often times upon closer observation you find that the short skirt, nice legs and fake boobs are only cover ups for a fatal flaw in charactor. A walk about is NOT the same as a flashlight up a deers ass.

My own story. As Daniel Meng and I were bringing my entry in, Joe Meder happened to see it. When our eyes met, Joe gave me a thumbs up. That felt pretty good coming from my original teacher. He was judging it from a distance based on "curb appeal". However, upon closer inspection by Bryan Eppley, my entry received a second. A second that I was happy to get. I knew my flaws, and Bryan found them.

 

Doug, of course you wouldnt mount your deer to my standards, nor to any judges standards. Thats the point. Its not my standard or any other judge. THE REAL ANIMAL is the standard. We mount our mounts to the standard that is that species.

If you guys wanna argue bad judges, so be it, I have no solution for that either. If you wanna grab some mounts from past world shows, some mounts would SMOKE some of the stuff winning lately. BUT, some of the old stuff also wouldnt hold a candle to what wins now. So, to me, the work, or the bar, is not the standard, as each year seems to vary, and I know we arent judging our latest shows based on some of those previous years winners.

Im not a particularly intelligent guy, but its very clear to me that we cannot compare foot races, beauty contests and other competitions to our taxidermy competions. Taxidermy competitions are graded with a scoresheet.

 

Tim I will never stop likening LOL I just can not believe you are buying in to this. It is still a COMATION some one should win. I have judge at state show before and Cary Cochran gave me some good advice. He said when judging it like a box full of bad apples some times. you look at them and pick out the ones that are not as bruised as the rest and you make them your blues, and then you go back and look at the others, and pick out the ones that looks a little less then the first ones and make them your reds, and last one whites. and if half the apple is missing Honorable mention. So is somebody going to wright a rule book on the STANDARD that all show would have to go by? And who would that be.....I think there would be only one candidate, the one that made those things......... that we have the privilege to mount.........

 

Bill It will be your interoperation of the REAL ANTMAL
This is the best thing you have said today LOL

 

"its very clear to me that we cannot compare foot races, beauty contests and other competitions to our taxidermy competions. Taxidermy competitions are graded with a scoresheet"

From the rules: "In some cases, the judges may not award a Best in World in a particular category if they do not feel there is an entry deserving of the award. This decision will be made at the discretion of the judges and may not necessarily reflect or be based upon the numerical score of the entry."

Thats a clear distraction to the value of scoring.

Anyway, Bill, I'd say we have the same thing in mind when we start a mount.

Best, Scott

 

Competitions ARE graded with a score sheet, HOWEVER, the quality standard of entrees keeps getting better and better. In my 20 years I've seen my knowledge and results improve, while at the same time I've seen others knowledge and results improve even moreso. I know I haven't gone backwards, but even with my improvements my ass still gets handed to me on a yearly basis. IE..........THE STANDARD BAR KEEPS RAISING. If your gonna play in the competition game, you better get very innovated or be satisfied with getting your ass handed to you. LOL


A deer that I blued on 5 years ago would not blue today.

 

I think some of us are saying the same thing, just with different words.

I dont think judges are all the same.

I dont think competitors should mount according to a judges likes.

I think a scoresheet dictates a criteria and a checklist that both judge AND competitor can use.

I think the live animal really IS the standard, we all do our best to see it for what it is.

A variable of this is, the taxidermy approach to it.

I really wish there were a way for us to develop some kind of baseline for judges, and to keep a small amount of the human element out of judging...and the same goes for the competitor too.

 

Scott, I see thats a world show rule, but Im wondering here, how a judge excersizes that option. I can see if they judged and could not get the score high enough. But to have a valid scoring mount, and with his descretion, not award it the B in W, hmmm. I hear ya.

 

My impression is that Best in World is based on a vote of catagory judges, usually 5, and that the vote, not the score, determines whether or not an entry gets best in world. The score is determined by 3 subcatagory judges and determines only the ribbons and eligibility for best in world consideration. I could be misreading it. Basically, a vote against would contradict the subcatagory judges combined score. The catagory judges can discuss the mount openly, so I suppose they are determining the outcome verbally before the vote is cast. It'd be interesting to be a fly on the wall in the event of a disagreement. But, yeh, going against the score seems a bit questionable to me. I don't know if this happens or not.

 

Each judge makes an argument for his/her selection. Person who feels strongest about their candidate and makes the best argument wins. Judicial ethics intact I presume.

 

Two of my dear friends made comments to me I'm never going to forget.

"Regardless of how good you are and the awards you've won, you still have to gut and skin out the animal just like everyone else." Bill Yox

"No one entering a competition ever brought a bad piece. He brought the very best work he was capable of and all of his friends and family told him so. How he's treated can make or break a good taxidermist." Ken Walker
[/quote]

I like what your good friends have said to you George.


Does the score sheet not set the"Standard"?

I am glad I don't have to worry about all this, I compete with myself and my own abilities to do a good piece. I really don't care what someone else does or receives as a ribbon or award.

I know for a fact that others will not agree with me because taxidermy competitions are not sports but taxi competition work to me is like golf. You are competing against your own abilities, your willingness to put in the time to hone your skills, your ability to not worry about the other guy and stay focused on what you can control. YOU.

I, at one time loved to compete, I know for a fact it has made me a better taxidermist. I also know that I have lost the fire in my gut to continue. For the last three years I have succeeded in starting a mount to take to the shows and for the last three years I have found a reason to not take the pieces I mounted. I have allowed myself to loose focus on what they really should be about. Learning, improving, meeting good like minded people.

 

LOL Not really. I spent 30 years in the military and, trust me, I understand quite well what a "standard" is. I know taxidermy doesn't have them and I know that many judges excuse lack of objectivity while hiding behind it. And NO, I'm not against fair, honest , opinions of someone else's work. I have NO issue in a guy getting an 85 when he was sure it was a 95. (None of us have "ugly babies". If you doubt it, ask us.) But when a score approaches 90 in a MAJOR competition, a judge needs impeccable character and judgement. Not only from the fact that sizable financial awards are at stake, but that his own character becomes an issue others will judge HIM OR HER by. The use of fractions and teaser scores are not only ridiculous, they raise the question of credibility in how a piece can be assigned a score of ONE TENTH OF ONE HUNDREDTH of a point. I've yet to meet a PERSON, much less a "judge" capable of answering that on.

We have some great people who evaluate pieces at our competitions. Yet, as has been implied here, some are selected simply on their personal successes. If a competition expects its competitors to be at the top of their game to win, then perhaps they should demand the same of the people deciding that. When's the last time you were given a sheet to critique the "judge"?