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ok.. need some help here with DNR and my rights

Discussion in 'The Taxidermy Industry' started by ryanolson72, Oct 9, 2008.

  1. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Marty , why must you always have your heart bleed all over this issue. If you're a sheep delighted to be led to the slaughter, by all means head out. For the rest of you people with testicles or with the fortitude to think that you are endowed with certain rights that cannot be infringed upon, then demand the same respect FROM the law as you do FOR the law.

    Ryan, you damned right "some" of us are going to tell you to show the guy the door. Marge Schott said Hitler was a "nice guy" and got a bum rap. He is entitled BY LAW to inspect your RECORDS. He CANNOT SEARCH ANYTHING WITHOUT A WARRANT UNLESS YOU CAPITULATE. Once you open a freezer or a restricted access work area, you have forfeited all your rights and any protections of the law you may have had.

    Marty thinks that because the Federal Court case happened in an area dislocated from his that the Showers ruling is exempt from being upheld in your district. Nothing is farther from the truth. The ONLY step preventing this issue from reaching the US Supreme Court is that (1) no taxidermist had balls enough to pursue the issue, or (2) those that did quickly enlightened the local DNR folks that a 6 or 7 figure payout for an illegal search might actually bankrupt their agency.

    You're a bright young guy and the Showers case is written in plain, understandable English and is quite specific as to what constitutes an "inspection" versus what makes it a "search". People who assume that gamewardens can be your friends are the same people who take rattlesnakes to bed with them. When you get bit, you can't claim you didn't know what it was when you slipped it under the covers. Stay away from bleeding hearts and protect yourself and your family. I just heard about a case TONIGHT in Michigan where a taxidermist ceded to a search with catastrophic results. You'll soon see it here I'm sure, but it all happened because the taxidermists "didn't want to piss off the warden."
  2. I'm with George on this. I just wrote a bit on the "no warrant no search" thread. You can be nice and still show them the door. If they want to stay and chat they do it at the front door. If they want to see books they wait at the front door. If they walk in and find you in the back walk with them to the front and ask them to wait there. You don't have to be an a$$ about it. Just let them know you respect them as the law and you respect the law but you also respect YOUR rights. If they become a problem call your local PD.

  3. FishArt

    FishArt Well-Known Member

    1st off George, I capitulated last night for about 45 minutes and it was great - thank you!

    Secondly, so I tell the guy to get a warrant. So what? What did that just do for me? So the guy comes back later or the next day or next week and NOW he's LOOKING for something. That's all I need to do is piss the guy off instead of just letting him in so he can be on his way in 45 minutes??? That doesn't sound too smart to me.

    Lastly, next time you accuse me of having no testicles, PLEASE do so in my presence!!! (I'll SHOW them to you - lol!) Which brings up another question. Mine seem to be getting bigger through the years. Or, maybe they're just migrating towards the equator more through the aging process? I don't know. You're an old fart George, perhaps you can answer this question as well??? LOL!
  4. get ahold of Russ i hear he has the scoop of taxidermist rights
  5. redwolf

    redwolf Active Member

    First off let me say I understand that we have rights, and I thank God for that. Nobody's saying sit down, drink a beer and tell him what your favorite things are. I think they are saying be decent to the CO and don't give him a reason to WANT to get you. Trust me I pissed off a LOT of cops when I was younger and they watched me like hawks just waiting to get me after that. I don't want the same thing to happen with a CO.
    I've been lucky enough that I haven't had a visit yet. When I do get one I hope it goes good, but I sure as heck wont be running my mouth about my rights and pushing his buttons. I know my luck I'll push the wrong one.
  6. bellsbigbucks

    bellsbigbucks New Member

    they do whatever the hell they want. :mad:
  7. We had the CO's stop in two years ago while we were in the middle of skinning off a couple of deer heads. We told them we were busy at the time but if they wanted to stay and help we would get done quicker and they could look over everything. They asked what would be a better time to come back and we told them to come back the next day. They said that was fine and away they went.

    The next day, they stopped in and all went well. Said they were hitting all the taxidermists in our county because of some illegal activity they had heard about in the area and weren't sure which taxidermist it was.

    Personally I'm friends with all the CO's in my area. They know me, know my reputation, and I have no problems.
  8. mike g

    mike g Active Member

    Check points on New years eve or St patrick's day are not random pull overs. They do these check points every year here on those high risk day but they still need proable cause to check you (expired plate, head lamp out and other moving violations).

    Just elect Obama in November if you don't give a dam about your rights. If you are going to let them walk on you once you might as well give them all up.
  9. FishArt

    FishArt Well-Known Member

    I think random check points are dead wrong! IF cops wanted to bust drunks all they have to do is wait outside a bar at closing time. But, I've been told that this is illegal to do so???

    And for the record, I don't like the random checks with the DNR either. But, like many others mentioned you pick your battles...
  10. mndemohead

    mndemohead New Member

    There is a big difference between Being an A$$hole to the CO and standing up for your rights. Same goes for the police. I don't think making them follow the letter of the law is too much to ask, since they assume the same from us. My local CO is a great guy, and eventhough I wouldn't consider him a "friend", we are on great terms. If he see me on the street he will greet me by name and have a normal conversation, if he is ever out checking hunters or fisherman and he runs into me, he never asks to see my license, because he knows I follow the law. On the other hand if I were ever doing anything wrong I know he wouldn't think twice about writing me. Eventhough I know him well, if he ever came to do an inspection I would require him to show propper paperwork. I want to be considered a good guy he his books, but not a pushover either. These guys that say to "just let him in" are asking for trouble. If they showed up at your house and asked you if they could come in a search for drugs, eventhough you know you didn't have any, would you let them in without a warrant? I sure would hope not. I guess to each his own, but in my opinion the government has too much power already, I'm not about to give them anymore.
  11. B Jones

    B Jones Memeber of - NTA,UTA,AIT.Proud Member of NZTA.

    Tazzy has it right, if you are clean you have nothing to fear.
  12. redwolf

    redwolf Active Member

    LMAO I said the same thing a few months ago on another thread and the flood gates opened.

  13. ryanolson72

    ryanolson72 Active Member

    wow 3 pages overnight....this must be a hot topic...lol. Well I do understnad my rights and I will make sure that I hold up my end of the bargin....

    Just on a side note after all these coments, it makes me wonder if the government were to come to your door step and demand your guns, how many people would give them up and "chit chat" with the officers? I can hear many of you saying I would never give up my 2nd amendment right....... If you wouldn't give that up then why are we giving up our 4th amendment right? All of the old timers including my peers have a strong opnion on rights infringment and I believe that there is a line that can not be crossed.
  14. FishArt

    FishArt Well-Known Member

    Not to open ANOTHER can of worms, but what the heck - lol! Even the Second Amendment is subject to interpretation!!!

    Cut and paste:

    The meaning of the Second Amendment depends upon who you talk to. The National Rifle Association, which has the Second Amendment (minus the militia clause) engraved on its headquarters building in Washington, insists that the Amendment guarantees the right of individuals to possess and carry a wide variety of firearms. Advocates of gun control contend that the Amendment was only meant to guarantee to States the right to operate militias. The Supreme Court could easily resolve this debate, but ever since the cryptic decision of U. S. vs. Miller in 1939, the Court has ducked the issue.

    Miller is subject to two possible interpretations. One, that the Second Amendment is an individual right, but that the right only extends to weapons commonly used in militias (the defendants in Miller were transporting sawed-off shotguns). The second--broader--view of Miller is that the Amendment guarantees no rights to individuals at all.

    There is also a second open question concerning the Second Amendment: If it does create a right of individuals to own firearms, is the right enforceable against state regulation as well as against federal regulation? In 1876, the Supreme Court said the right--if it existed--was enforceable only against the federal government, but there's been a wholesale incorporation of Bill of Rights provisions into the 14th Amendment since then, and it's not clear that the Court would come to the same conclusion today. In Quilici vs Morton Grove, a case involving a challenge to a Chicago suburb's ban on the possession of handguns, the Seventh Circuit concluded that the right was not enforceable against the states.

    In 2007, the D. C. Court of Appeals, in Parker v District of Columbia, struck down a Washington, D.C. ban on individuals having handguns in their homes. With its 2 to 1 ruling, the D. C. Circuit became the nation's second court of appeals (following the Fifth Circuit) to find that the Second Amendment creates an individual right to own firearms. Most other circuits courts had concluded the Second Amendment protects only the rights of states to maintain militias. The split in the circuits suggested that the time was finally be ripe for another Supreme Court decision on the issue. The Supreme Court granted cert in the fall of 2007 (the case has been re-named District of Columbia v Heller) and a decision is expected in June 2008.
  15. B Jones

    B Jones Memeber of - NTA,UTA,AIT.Proud Member of NZTA.

    ryanolson72, I am not sure what michigan laws say but here when you get a license you have allowed them to come to your place of business to be inspected. However it does state, at a reasonable time and during normal business hours. I do not however agree with harrasement there is a difference. The guys are just doing there job. I am not sure what this has to do with our rights to gun ownership. That is another issue in my mind. I am not arguing your views, you have a right to them as well. Also if you have been checked that many times that often, someone may or may not be telling the DNR to have you checked. I don't know.
  16. mike g

    mike g Active Member

    I really would like someone to post the law from thier state that says by getting this taxidermy permit you are agreeing to inspection, ie your shop from wall to wall including your freezers, your desk, your closets, closed boxes, anything other than just your records. I want to see that because I don't beleive for one minute that there is such a stipulation when one gets a permit to do taxidermy.
  17. ryanolson72

    ryanolson72 Active Member

    thanks to both of you for the postings. Fish art I areally was not trying to open a can of worms and it really has nothing to do with this post I was just trying to prove a point as to were we stand up for ourselves and why different issues would make us feel differently about our rights.

    And B. Jones I agree with our licence it does state that we can be inspected but what can they inspect? Anything? whenever? I am going to call the DNR and find out how this whole system works as to try and find out why or if I am being targeted. Maybe there is a lot of poaching activity in my area and they are looking for someone or some people. Like I have said before, I don't mind any inspections but 4 in a 12 month period I think is a little much.

    It makes me wonder if my normal customers or new customers may be driving by and see the dnr there and just pass on by. That is human nature to 95% of the people. If you see a cop at a beer store and you are going to buy beer and you had one or two, would you pull in there to buy beer or just drive to the next one or wait until another time to come back?

    Like I have said many many times I have nothing to hide but after proving this time and time again why the constant visits?
  18. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    BJones, your comments are dumber than a stump and you are in the right job as a taxidermist. ANYONE who would THINK to make a dumbass comment, "If you don't have anything to hide..." is the guy I want right down the street from me. I know he's nothing but bear bait. What part of the Showers v. Spangler aren't you able to comprehend. FEDERAL LAW says that NO GAME DEPARTMENT, NO POLICE DEPARTMENT, NO NOBODY can "search" your property without a warrant. What part of that Showers case confused you about how the judge WROTE DOWN WHAT CONSTITUTES AN INSPECTION VERSUS A SEARCH. Just what part of that ruling did you see where the judge said that you abdicated your guarantees under the 4th Amendment to the Constitution. (You DIDN'T, he specifically mentioned that exact point and found Spangler guilty on that issue.)

    Marty, I honestly don't know how you've survived this long. What part of the Heller v. DC ruling by the US Supreme Court did you fail to see? The majority of justices ruled in favor of the interpretation by the NRA, but I'm guessing you stopped reading in the 2007 case you cited. When I implied you didn't have balls, I spoke out of turn. I know lots of guys who have them dimensionally but never use them physically. I should have geared my statement more in that direction.

    And for those Einsteins among you who think that if you demand that a warrant be produced before you're SEARCHED is just a matter of "go and get one", perhaps you need to study about about the legal code in America first or ask any cop how "automatic" getting a warrant is, especially if there is no "probably cause". If you think that might incite the guy to "lay in wait for you", then you REALLY need to read the Showers case and see who came out on top in that one. Mike Showers risked everything he had to lay the groundwork for you imbeciles and you capriciously toss it away. You deserve to be taxidermists.
  19. James Marsico

    James Marsico Well-Known Member

    Exactly correct again George and the like style reasoning and thinking in this country is exactly why the new Messiah might get elected. People don't have a clue and or do not care. It is a sad world in America these days.
  20. B Jones

    B Jones Memeber of - NTA,UTA,AIT.Proud Member of NZTA.

    George, I have never read it so maybe my comment or I am dumber than a stump as you say. Did I say I read it.

    "If you don't have anything to hide..." is the guy I want right down the street from me. I know he's nothing but bear bait.

    Maybe you could help educate me George.