acids in pickle

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

Now wait a minute. I asked this a few months ago and was told yes, so I mix formic and safetee. What will happen now?

 

...So since nobody answered does that mean I'm okay?

 

This is an open forum and one of our complaints is that many on here read an answer and take it as gospel. Forget that the answer was given to you by a 10 year old kid who's never mounted a single animal in his short life, you still "read it on the taxidermy forums".

Well, the REAL answer is "NO". And it's a "NO" from the chemistry side of the issue rather than the commercial side. If you are using a pickle, use a particular brand for the entire job. The pH is a critical issue but the pH is NOT what the chemistry is all about, just the level of acidity. Would you pickle a cape with a Pepsi? How about red wine? Vinegar? Well, the pH is low, so why not? Never mix apples and oranges. Too many variables in the mix to swap fluids in a pickle where the criticality of the tan is determined. My question would be, "Why would anyone have all those different acids around anyway?"

 

What happened is I had been using formic acid and ran out so I asked if I could mix in safetee acid. I guess I got the wrong answer. Now both of my 40 gallon drums and all the hides in them have a mixture of formic and safetee. I understand the pepsi analysis because pepsi was never intended to be used on hides, but since both of these acids are used in the tanning process what harm could it do to mix them? I'm not questioning you; I just want to know if there is a specific reason or if it's just to be on the safe side because most people have never done it. I was taught by my teacher when tanning, for example, to mix curatan and syn-oil 50-50 because he liked that tan the best after experimenting a lot. So is it always bad to mix, or is there a specific reason. I guess I'm asking because I don't want to throw away all my acid and start over. I reuse it over and over for about a year, adding to it each time.

 

boarhunter, first off, let's not confuse the issue. It MAY work fine. In your case, the Saftee Acid if likely stronger than the formic acid. Some disagree, but I have yet to get a pickle out of formic acid that would fall below a 2.0 pH (YES, it's stronger in the bottle buy the pH of water increases it when put in a solution I'm supposing). Conversely, Saftee Acid will bring that pickle right to 1.0 where I love a pickle to be. It does NOT seem to weaken when mixed with water.

Next, however, is your trust in a single batch of pickle. The Saftee Acid is a prime example. In 5 gallons of water you can pour 3 ounces of Saftee Acid in and make the pH 1.0. But you can pour the entire gallon in and the pH is STILL 1.0. What you're doing is not considering the CONCENTRATION of the acid. I STRONGLY discourage anyone reusing the pickle. If cost is an issue, charge your clients more and the cost is negligible. Remember, the pickle is leeching out fluids and they're now part of that flotsam you have in your barrel. It's tough to control your tan when you don't control your pickle. Change it and control both.

 

Thanks George. I respect your opinion as you're always very knowledgeable and willing to help out people like me. Are you saying you throw out your pickle with every animal? I was taught to reuse it for up to a year and just add more acid when the pH increases. My teacher has done this for 20-30 years with no adverse effects and he has a montage of animals come through his shop. I'd find it hard to believe that the tanneries use a different batch of pickle with each animal, too. I understand not getting the acid too concentrated. My acid ph stays a little higher than your (2.0-2.2), and things like blood leech out into the acid. But it still sounds like this is a personal opinion rather than a rule-of-thumb.

 

You COULD ask Old Shaver what Carolina does with its pickle, but I already know that answer as well. Someplace in here recently was a post about the pickle being saturated and Old Shaver reiterated they dump the pickles often

In a one man shop, using it several times is all right (I guess using it for a year works), but I just don't see the need in taking that kind of chance. I'm going to dump it after a couple hides , certainly when I finish a batch. I probably have twice as much time as the guy who trained you and I won't even hazard a guess as to how many animals I've done and even when I was using sulfuric acid, that's the rule I used back then even in the early 1970's.

Here you go. http://www.taxidermy.net/forum/index.php/topic,127897.0.html

 

Thanks George. I guess it's getting time to change it out anyway.

 

some commercial tanners mix acids on purpose to achieve different results. You should know what your doing first and why you are doing it.
I agree in changing out the pickle. I use it one time and out it goes. However , it will still pickle if quite dirty.

 

alum is a perfectly acceptable pickle at pH's around 2, right?

 

And at 3 to 3.5 and there is no additional advantage below 2. with any acid . This is my opinion. Every commercial tanner has his or her on way.

 

Now I ain't no Chemist, nor am I the Know all And Be all of tanning, My terminology may not be apropos. and I am sure some Breezy turd will Correct it. However, I have tanned hides for over 30 years. And I do Not mean some brush on tan. real three stage full tans. and here is what I have found to work over the long haul. In a world of bigger and better things daily. acid choices have changed considerably. Both for safety and environmental reasons. Different acids work differently. so to speak. although some seem to be companion acids, and combining them in a pickle may cause little or no problem. some acids in combination can change the characteristics of the acids in such a way that they do not properly naturalize in the neutralization process. thus they may damage the hide in the long term. Poor acid quality, or higher pH causes the hide to take up more water within the cells of the hide causing the acid not to create the proper change the hide will tan out. However In my experience hides tanned after a higher pickle tend to become grainy and more likely to pull stitches, or crack down the road. As for how long a pickle can be used. It depends on how dirty it gets. dirty pickels tend to cause the acid to expend more rapidly. I change my pickle every 200 pounds of dry hides. However I use 2 step pickle hides are placed in the pre pickle (just what we call it) after a day they are shaved and placed in the second Pickle for 2 more days (depending on species) the pH is maintained at 2.0 on the pickels. after 200 Lbs of hides the second pickle becomes the pre pickle, and a new batch of second pickle is made. This is the way we have done it for the past 22 years. we have changed acids, and tanning's. but not the technique.