No Ron, I wasnt calling you a whiner, etc. Its like this...very seldom does it come down to Mr Instructor overseeing Mr Student doing a show peice to enter. Yet, the overwhelming theme to the comments that followed this initial post to open the topic was ...cheater! I get it, IF the proposal was to directly help the student win the show with a supervised peice, yes, of course, thats wrong. All I am trying to say is, for the benefit of all who jumped on here, thats not what typically happens. Its more likely the coached approach...and that happens ALL the time, and is not so clearly defined. Thats all I was trying to say. Hey, Ive been accused from both sides of this argument before, so I know how it feels. Lastly, and I have said this so many times...Id love to enter a competition where we all got the same form, same material, same everything, all had similar sized cape and antlers, and a time frame. They say GO, and we all begin mounting. Ill enter that contest any day. Only difference should be the mans ability. Anyone with me?