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competition pieces being done at seminars/schools???

Discussion in 'Training' started by RDA, Mar 9, 2009.

  1. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    No Ron, I wasnt calling you a whiner, etc. Its like this...very seldom does it come down to Mr Instructor overseeing Mr Student doing a show peice to enter. Yet, the overwhelming theme to the comments that followed this initial post to open the topic was ...cheater!

    I get it, IF the proposal was to directly help the student win the show with a supervised peice, yes, of course, thats wrong. All I am trying to say is, for the benefit of all who jumped on here, thats not what typically happens. Its more likely the coached approach...and that happens ALL the time, and is not so clearly defined.

    Thats all I was trying to say. Hey, Ive been accused from both sides of this argument before, so I know how it feels.

    Lastly, and I have said this so many times...Id love to enter a competition where we all got the same form, same material, same everything, all had similar sized cape and antlers, and a time frame. They say GO, and we all begin mounting. Ill enter that contest any day. Only difference should be the mans ability. Anyone with me?
  2. Monty Artrip

    Monty Artrip Active Member

    RDA, great post on an interesting subject, you sure know how to open a can of worms!LOL. Anyway, you all have good points. The simple fact is, anywhere there is a competition for anything, someone is going to bend the rules to their advantage. And as George said, someone will get their panties in a wad if their perception is that this happened. Bill Yox pointed out an interesting point on this subject that I have to totally agree with. I have only been to a couple of workshops with world class guys, and the time constraints would not even let me begin to do what I would consider a competition worthy mount. Not to mention, most of your time is spent trying to digest new info, taking away the time it would take to concentrate on the details. All this aside, I wonder who could enjoy winning something this way if it were possible?

  3. Pescado

    Pescado Biggest in 2011

    Wasn't it a father / son team that took the collective artist "best in world" in reno? Might be a chapter on that.
  4. Pescado

    Pescado Biggest in 2011

    I'd be in that one in a heartbeat Bill, except it would need fins and scales.

  5. RDA

    RDA Active Member

    ..I feel sorry for those types due to the extreme short cutting of themselves... I look at the many awards I have now and then and remember the striff I put myself through in getting it, and it makes me realize the importance of that ribbon or plaque...The true reward is not the wood or material but the lessons learned and the obstacles over come by your own imagination- thats what really feeds the competition needs and keeps the juices of creativity flowin....Its not so much a "standard" but a rather obvious self worth issue... The people Ive told in my seminars of why not to bring a seminar bird to a show have all gone on their own to truly earn their own awards, and 100% of those people have expressed appreciation for taking the high road so-to-speak, and they became better dermists for that....
    I came from a different world in taxidermy (especially in Nevada) where NO INFO was ever shared with any other taxidermist...Actually it is still very much alive here in the not-so-great basin of Nevada...Heres a funny fact,,, until 1995,,,I had maybe talked to other dermists for a total of twenty minutes--period....Thats after 24 years doing a part time business, it just wasnt done in my woods..If you went to another shop, and they found out you were a dermist, a bed sheet would fly over their project and you were asked to leave.....Now its a whole differet ball game being played. What with all the videos, cds, books schools and THIS SIGHT,,,,info on anything you want to do is out there and readily available, which has a tendancy to somewhat level the playing field in a way. Why with all of this would one want to cheat themselves out of the true lessons is beyond me....

    and Bill, I do like that idea of mounting on the spot I can feeeeeellllll the pressure... ;D
  6. Ted B

    Ted B Active Member

    Yoxy I love that idea, that way this student can show his teacher that he's got what it takes...;D
  7. *

    * Liberalism IS A MENTAL ILLNESS !


  8. RDA

    RDA Active Member

    That would be cool, a live taxidermy challenge!! Quick,, someone call Larry!! :eek: ;D

    And Yep Bill there is a degree of coaching, as Ive coached several on here by phone pms, emails etc....But the info I give them is available to any one who asks- and Im not there with them showing them how to taxi the skin to get this and that....That's the line IMO, this sight alone can make someone a dermist if they pay attention- so the line must obviously be the personnel on the spot coaching.... Ive been through many of the same situations. I had a girlfriend long ago that started doing birds and wanted to enter a show coming up, so I pulled a chukar out of the freezer plopped it down in front of her along with some reference and said "here ya go"....That was THE last thing I said to her and boy did I hear about that till the show... ::) ;D She would be in the shop cussing me from stem to Stearn ;D... She ended up getting best of novice class ON HER own, and I could look people squarely in the eye and say she got NO help from me. The line isnt so nebulous..
  9. Becky P

    Becky P One must believe the glass is half full.

    Don't they do a live mounting comp at one of the state shows? Oklahoma maybe? I think it would be neat to do.
  10. Bill Dishman

    Bill Dishman Well-Known Member

    Some of you guys need to relax, stop worrying about what someone else is doing and concentrate on what
    YOUR doing. Competition to me is less about winning awards and more about the comeraderie and learning opportunities. Its supposed to be an enjoyable way to see new work and ideas, catch up with old friends, make new ones and have a good time. If your going just to win a ribbon, its like going to the casino cause you need to make a house payment. I cant believe all the times ive seen crybabies berating a judge for not scoring thier mount higher and storming out of the convention in an obvious tizzy.
    Freakin prima donnas!
    If someone enters a mount that is wholly not his or hers and wins an award, that person will, if he has a conscience, suffer from we might call panophobia - a feeling of unease that settles in the pit of thier stomachs and tells them that they are receiving credit for something they dont justly deserve.
    competition is recognition of a personal achievment, and that person has to decide in his own heart if he is truly a winner.
    I dont care what someone else decides to do, or not do. Im too busy running my OWN business.
  11. Cole

    Cole Amateur Taxidermist

    I'm not going to lie, I am a competitive person. I fish a lot of tournaments, and I do it to win. I play poker at least twice a week, and I'm there to win, and when I enter a taxidermy competition, same reason. Don't get me wrong, I love the camaraderie, learning, and meeting new people which I get to do with all of these activities, but it is a competition. I'm much better at fishing and poker than I am taxidermy, but that just means I've got some more work to do, and someday I'll hopefully win big. That being said, you will never see me berate a judge or storm out. I'm a graceful loser. (I think it's because I've had so much practice, lol)
  12. Ted B

    Ted B Active Member

    I think Montana used to have a Whitetail challenge too (I could be wrong tho, I wasn't there but I know friends that were). That would be cool if the world show had something like that. They do it with sculpting, why not live mounting ???
  13. Rick Krane

    Rick Krane Fish Taxidermist/ Judge/ Sculptor/ Instructor

    I often wonder why some times the same hot topics keep coming up? I get it fully and I agree that there are some really crappy things that go on in this industry. Trust me when I say this if some of the old time stick in the mud guys like me get on here you sure could here some stories with a rang of bizarre that you couldn’t make up if you tried! Lots of taboo subjects liker this one come and go. Champions doing work for other champions to assure that have a better chance of winning? A bird guy doing a bird for a fish guy so they can win a best all around? The part time taxidermist putting in several hundred hours to win a 6 dollar ribbon and a 50.00 trophy, But does this represent the taxidermy a customer gets? I have to and want to believe in some cases it does but I know in many it does not!

    It is really not about the ribbons it is about self esteem! No one is the best, period! There are lots of great folks doing great things. The best is relative to a moment in time and not a life time. There will always be better and greater any thing in most cases. What is important to me personally is to have a longevity that encompasses a body of work and respect from peers. To be known as a good contributor who grace and gives to the industry to make it better for all is what matters to me personally. I don’t compete (at least not willing) but that is my choice. I have no fear in my heart what so ever if I did I would show just fine and represent good taxidermy. Would I win… who knows but if I did the best I could then I won at least the challenge of doing the best I could on that day for that time.

    Winning is great but if you didn’t do the work what did you win? Why??? When my students do well it is a great thing for them and a great pride for me for all the time I spend in the industry trying to make it better so we all can share in what may one day make some one feel good about their efforts. The petty Bull Shit that goes on between competitors is just that! When I did compete there we fierce competitor and I didn’t always win! I didn’t cry either! You took your critique and learned from what that person tried to give you. I know there are some ego driven Judges out there but still try doing your best to learn something! I see today it is nothing short of a competitive sporting event with out the prestige or the money. Remember this is taxidermy the historical preservation of fauna not the ultimate fighting championships! LOL!

    We all have hot buttons let’s face it! I’ll say the same thing I said the last time this subject came up. I will tell you from a person who teaches and Judges and has for some time now that if you stay in this long enough you will see and hear every thing. When a student contacts me to begin their process to learn we cover third goals and in some cases it is souls to compete. This is not an obstacle because it is explained that what we will cover and what they will learn is any and all the best techniques I have to offer so that they may one day with hard work achieve their goals. It is also discussed that the work that is done here at angler artistry in their workshop is the body of learning and nit the piece to use to compete. As hard as I try to be a hands off instructor at some point I may or do in some cases have to touch the fish and them it become a direct involvement rather then a directional or instruction approach. Regardless it may be that some will leave and compete any way.

    My personal feeling is that one should take the time and the knowledge shared and applied it. Way too much emphasis is give and afford to the ribbon and titles. I do see it and more at the shows. Masters work being brought to other or smaller venues and placed in prof. divisions, Top award winners in a particular discipline taking advantage of technicalities to compete for an award or a title which they may already have earned in a similar capacity related to there discipline, I have seen Taxidermist do work in capacities for others to help others achieve success, clicks of people who scratch one others backs. All for what? ? A ribbon, some success, a title??? When you stop enjoying the process of learning then you must ask why you are doing it. You can only win so much then you’re looked at as ribbon gluten. I like what my friend Terry said about going to learn. Terry is among the best taxidermist period out there and hasn’t yet let go of the passion to learn. It is unfair and hard to see others take advantage of technicality or out side assistance however you should never feel that one but you can win it or loss it for you. All the help in the world will still not win you a feeling of self-accomplishment.

    A great friend and mentor of mine just told me of this post last evening and said since the 70’s, 80’s, 90’s and through tomorrow as long as there is the ego involved there will always be some one trying to win. The shows were made up to get all of us together to share a common ground and a place where we can share friendship and knowledge. I was very competitive in sports, collage, martial arts, and taxidermy, but I will say this life changes and so do you. I do taxidermy for a living and for the love of my passions for nature but don’t ever think that in a workplace there isn’t politics or competition. The only big difference I see is that we all come together in a common place on common ground not as professional taxidermy by profession but a taxidermist by passion. Have fun and learn if that is what your there for, just understand no ribbon, trophy or title will make you a better person or enrich your soul. Love what you do but love who you are more importantly.

    My Best!
    Rick Krane
  14. RDA

    RDA Active Member

    well said Rick exactly the point although Im no where near as eloquent ;) :D
  15. Monty Artrip

    Monty Artrip Active Member

    Great reply, Rick. I would say that about sums up how most of us feel. Competition can be a great and fun thing and a great learning tool. It can also get ugly real quick as I have witnessed on several occasions. Everyone likes to win and have their moment in the sun, but it is far more gratifiying to be able to share what you have learned and help someone else. As most serious competitors have said before, the only loser is the guy who closed his mind to what he may have learned if he had asked. Win or lose, I come home and make a list of things I need to improve and decide on a plan of attack to do it. It has been really enlightening to read this post.
  16. the only award i like to get is when my customer says great job and pays his bill... thats enough of an award for me. ;)
  17. Rick, Well said! A great comentary that SHOULD put things in perspective for most people! Rich and Monty, Verry good points as well.
  18. rbear

    rbear Well-Known Member

    OK allot has been said sense yesterday. Let me sum up what I read into all of it. There is no clear line in the sand on what is eligible to be entered into a competition. Why don't we lobby as a group to have standards for our industry for competing? I know this has been said before but until WE step up to the plate this discussion will continue forever.
  19. Wildside

    Wildside Active Member

    Every show you end up with so much hear sayand allegations. There would be no way to patrol it. Each competitor needs to take care of themself. Some say it is OK to have help to a certain point. Others say it is OK to take your mount and have it critiqued and fix it. Others say then it is not your original work. One person I know always gives the example:

    "If I mounted a deer and had Bill, Joe, Rick and Jodi standing behind me giving me opinions and verbal assistance throughout the mounting process, I would surely do a better mount than by myself. So I would not be honest saying it was my own work."

    There seems to varying degrees as to what is acceptable.
  20. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Ralph, we don't for a multitude of reason
    (4) Regardless of any "safeguards" you try to build in, it still depends on the integrity of the entrant.
    (3) Show (especially smaller ones) cannot survive without capital income. They need the money from entrants
    (2) We don't HAVE any consensus as an industry to do ANYTHING
    (1) It doesn't really matter. As several of us have stated, in the big scheme of things, we've created our own system of "I love me" and no one outside our group really cares. Customers have larger concerns than our egos.