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Discussion in 'Training' started by RDA, Mar 9, 2009.
I hope when I get older I'm not that bitter.
All very good points. Now lets go take the next logical step; If we are not going to change anything lets work hard on our show pieces, take them to the show and enjoy!!
Cole, you'd better pray you get to be that OLD to begin with. Secondly, there's nothing bitter there at all. They are just facts of life that people who live in a dream world have this propensity to ignore. Nothing more.
The facts of life as seen through the eyes of a bitter man. Face it George, you put a negative spin on everything. At least that's what it looks like from my dream world.
Everyone is entitle to their own opinion, no one is entitled to their own FACTS. What FACTS do you consider my "opinion" Cole? The trouble with you is that you enjoy roses being blown up your ass and don't want to accept factual information. I'm not bitter about ANYTHING that I can think of. I enjoy the competitions simply because I can see where the bar is set. I especially enjoy the camaraderie of the shows and being able to talk shop with my own peer group. What I DON'T enjoy is the pouting and deflated egos of those who don't share the judges opinion of their work. Nor do I enjoy the backbiting in trying to sway a vote or a decision to meet one's own ego. And I don't like the rationalizing and the implications that REGARDLESS of what took place, there had to be something going on behind the scenes. It's at EVERY show I've ever attended and nothing ruins the charm and the enjoyment of others quicker that someone whining and crying about some perceived injustice at the hands of another. You guys who were never involved in the machinations of a show can pooh-pooh this all you want, but ask someone who's set on those committees or in those board rooms.
Again, Cole, I only posted FOUR FACTS. If one of them is simply my opinion and I cannot give you information to verify WHY I stated it to be a fact, please be so kind as to point it out by number and I'll quickly apologize for it having been must "my opinion."
Rbear, the only true standard is obvious, after reading this post...CONDUCT. Thats really all we have. Its up to each of us as individuals. Thats pretty much what it ever comes down to, when you think about it.
I agree. The final point I was trying to make was lets hold our selves to a standard and enjoy what we have going on. If we are not willing to change things then the currant process is good enough.
Thanks for giving us a chance to look at the way we conduct our selves at a show. I for one have no strong opinion what others do but for my self, that is another story!!
(4) Regardless of any "safeguards" you try to build in, it still depends on the integrity of the entrant.
(3) Show (especially smaller ones) cannot survive without capital income. They need the money from entrants
(2) We don't HAVE any consensus as an industry to do ANYTHING
(1) It doesn't really matter. As several of us have stated, in the big scheme of things, we've created our own system of "I love me" and no one outside our group really cares. Customers have larger concerns than our egos.
First of all, we've strayed totally off topic, but whats new. I know you believe these things to be true, and I don't totally disagree, but that doesn't make them fact. A fact is something that can be proven beyond doubt. These statements are open to interpretation, therefore can't be fact. To say the industry has NO consensus to do ANYTHING, is an obvious opinion, and possibly even an exaggeration. We've created an "I love me" system, and no one else cares. Well, maybe none of your customers care, but I have people ask me if I've "been to any competitions", and "how did I do", all the time. This is what makes them opinions, and your delivery is what makes you bitter. I'm curious as to what roses are being blown up my ass? I'm not even sure how to respond, because I'm not sure where you were going. And as for not being involved...I am on the board of the Missouri Taxidermist Association.
Yes integrity is up to the competitors, but that is no different than any thing else. Whether it be golf, poker, baseball, fishing tournaments, etc. etc., the individual competing has always and will always have to make that decision.
Thanks Ron for bringing this up and I second what Bill said, it all comes down to conduct. In my opinion the competitions are for raising the level of MY taxidermy. That's why I PAY to compete. I can't do anything about cheaters, but I can try and do my best. I'll never be able to do my real BEST, because I have a job and bills need to get paid. If I was retired and wealthy I'd spend a year on one piece and try to mimic Gods creations as well as I can. But, that's a dream world for me.
Thank you Cole. You lack of addressing what NON-facts that I made validate each one of them. I never said that your customers don't ask you if you've attended competition OR if you've won anything at them. Do you REALLY think the guy who won a blue ribbon at the County fair is lying when his answer is the same as yours? Your customer doesn't have a clue as to what "competition" means in the taxidermy industry. You could come to the Delaware show and win Judge's Choice most any year from our 15 to 25 pieces judged yet take the same piece to Pennsylvania and not even get a thank-you note for contributing to their prize fund with that piece. So when I tell the customers I won the BOC, People's Choice, WASCO, Polytranspar and Breakthrough Awards, what does that mean? I can tell you immediately. My customer is impressed, taxidermists will rationalize that I won it in Delaware and that doesn't mean anything to them. So much for that argument. My fact stands that test pretty well it would seem.
Secondly, IF the INDUSTRY has contentions to make changes, then for my "fact" to simply be opinion as you claim, you must have some proof or yours is the conjecture and has nothing to do with the FACT. Just a few posts above everyone chimed in that the "masters" should be judged on a tougher scale than "beginners" . If you need any better "proof" than that of the FACTS, then you're simply grasping for the sake of arguing. OR as I call it, "having your head in the sand".
The last FACT that you argued weakly was about personal character. I said that you can't build safeguards against character flaws. Any psychologist in the world will validate that fact as well. All the sports you listed are excellent points for my statement,not yours. Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, O.J. Simpson, the NBA referee Tim Donaghy,B.A.S.S. Mike Iaconelli, the eye-in-the-sky at every gambling parlor, and we all know about curmudgeons within our industry like the guy in Alaska poaching sheep. That's why it's called "human nature". I think you just like to piss and moan about my bluntness and the one who is actually "bitter" is YOU. Either that your you're just in denial. But THAT'S SIMPLY MY OPINION THERE and I won't imply anything FACTUAL about that.
Okay George, you win. I could sit here and argue semantics but you have strayed so far from the intent of the thread it isn't worth it. I agree with much of what you have said, because I have some of the same opinions. (Even though you never did answer my question concerning a certain floral bloom and my posterior.) To get back to the original post, if you don't want workshop/seminar stuff at shows, have your state adopt such a rule.
Cole, theres no way of defining it. States can say what they want, but people who want to cheat, will cheat.
When we enter we sign a paper saying we did the work ourself but that's not going to stop anyone from cheating.
RDA you don't have a clue what goes on in his shop. I was in the shop when he was there and no one ever touch his bird. He had the bird skinned, flesh,and the head painted. All he did was helped him on was helping him get his stuff out of his truck, heck i helped him to, so does that mean i helped him on his pieced also? If it wasn't for him i would not do as well as i do. There is better things to worry about than this. RDA get over it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I realize this. I've never said they wouldn't. People cheat in every sport, competition, and life in general. This thread isn't about cheating. The practice RDA describes is legal in some states, including mine. This thread was originally about whether it is right or wrong to do so.
well stu,,,,,Ive already had a conversation with the one involved,,,and that has been resolved so your a bit late...That being said, as I explained to the person, by the original post, it was stated that a show piece was being worked on while under training- or at least thats certainly how it seemed....And being a judge and competitior, I wanted to bring it to the attention of the persons involved. Now it certainly could be the case that this topic does not apply to that situation, but no one could tell from the original post....It lead to exaclty what was posted...Many on here look but never post and Im sure the topic has raised a few brows out there....Ad information,,, stu,,,, is what this sight is about.....Was I supposed to let someone who may not know about competition ettiquette go ahead a ruin their potential reputations or,,, should I maybe say something which could help them tremendously in the long run.... A call was made...
Cole, yes I read the whole post. I was simply answering YOU, my friend!
"To get back to the original post, if you don't want workshop/seminar stuff at shows, have your state adopt such a rule."
I know you were Bill, my point is there is a difference between cheating, and taking advantage of the rules. There are guys at our competition that bring stuff they did in a workshop, and as long as the instructor didn't touch it, it is within the rules at our show. Yes it makes it harder on guys like me that haven't taken any workshops, and do most of my learning in the pages of Breakthrough, but I don't see that as cheating. What you are describing is dishonest people who intentionally break the rules to gain an advantage. Yes, that will take place, and those that are caught should be prosecuted, and not allowed to compete again.
Geez Cole, what would you "prosecute" them for? States are having a tough enough time keeping competitions going, what would getting a lawyer involved cost?
I don't like the idea any better than you do and I understand completely what's being said here. We're still never going to "legislate" character however.
You prosecute them for breaking the law. A cheater is no better than a thief, when there is prize money involved. It doesn't cost anything to prosecute when a law has been broken. That is what the Prosecuting Attorney is there for. I don't think cheating is a major problem at these shows. I'm not saying it's never happened, I just don't think it's an epidemic.