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DP vs. "home tan"

Discussion in 'Tanning' started by hounddoggy, Mar 20, 2009.

  1. more trouble than results are worth

    2 vote(s)
    7.4%
  2. worth the trouble,better end product

    25 vote(s)
    92.6%
  1. hounddoggy

    hounddoggy Member

    985
    1
    How many of you feel that the added steps required in home tanning provides a finished product that is "better enough" than dp to make it worth doing?
     
  2. hounddoggy

    hounddoggy Member

    985
    1
    a reply would be politically incorrect i guess!hahaha
     

  3. boss400

    boss400 Member

    133
    0
    I'll let you know in a week or so i just done a deer with syn oil tan i have been using DP for over 30 years. I like the condition the cape is in with tan, clean ,soft lot of stretch.The gluing part i will have to get use to,with DP it shrinks nice and tite. The tanning part was fun nice change
     
  4. hounddoggy

    hounddoggy Member

    985
    1
    boss 400,my main problem IS LACK OF STRETCH! Ya hear of so many who say with dp there is no stretch!I have to wonder if they ever used it.Ive tanned two deer and a coyote and fought them all of the way.In my opinion they BOTH shrink.Dp shrinks AFTER mounting and tan shrink (a ton) BEFORE mounting.I called a supply company to get "technical assistance"......they tried to sell me a stretcher! hmmmmm.....go figure!
     
  5. cyclone

    cyclone Posts: 400001

    Doggy, Did you test that scrap piece of hide...

    There are folks trying to steer you straight here but I'm afraid your method suffers from cranial temper disorder!
     
  6. hounddoggy

    hounddoggy Member

    985
    1
    hey cyclone,i got ticked at bill(hog man) and didnt plan to come back to this site but im addicted i guess.I just finished an awesome coyote pedistal with the rock and base.I salted it over night,rinsed,pickled,thinned,pickled ,then slowly neutralized.Next i rinsed,dried with towel really well,put on the tan.Bam! the tan took! the hide is awesome!Let it sit for 6 hours.rinsed in warm water(i was told my lack of stretch was due to me rinsing it in cold water),then i TRIED to mount! you got it!!!!wouldnt fit the form!!AGAIN!!Its the smallest frippin yote form you can get!! i tugged and tugged and got it to work BUT there is slack in lots of places on neck even though i couldnt get it on form easily.It looks great but i dont see myself putting up with all of this come next deer season! all of the steps and having to measure AFTER tanning,and pickling,and salting,ahhhhhh...all of that to have to fight a skin onto a form.My teacher saw my buck today,the one i fought to get on a form after dropping two sizes.He said,bud......your deer was much bigger than that,you tried to pickle it didnt you?I said yep!I know over time dp mounts can discolor.New epoxy pastes fix alot of the old dp issues but man,at this point in time i dont think its all worth it.I am serious i dropped 2 sizes and couldnt get my buck on the form without rasping it to smitherines.I followed the directions to a t.I was taught dp.I was foolish to strike off on my own with this tanning deal.i hoped to provide a better product.Dropping two sizes from an animals live size and going through all of that to me is not worth it.NO ONE HAS BEEN ABLE TO STEER ME RIGHT.WHEN SALTED,PICKLED,AND TANNED,EVERY ANIMAL IVE DONE HAS UNBELIEVABLE SHRINKAGE.IVE TRIED EVERYONES ADVICE!!AND YES ....I FOLLOWED THE DIRECTIONS TO A TEE!
     
  7. hounddoggy

    hounddoggy Member

    985
    1
    CYCLONE!!!,by the way,that scrap hide was o.k. after over night in the fridge and after the baking soda it remainned unchanged.it looks,feels,and smells tanned.no slippage either.stretch was about the same.the tan im getting seems awesome....IF I COULD BEAT THE SHRINKAGE I WOULD NEVER GO BACK TO DP!CNT BEAT IT THOUGH!I HAVE NO CHOICE!I PREFER MY SHRINKAGE AFTER THE MOUNT....NOT BEFORE!
     
  8. TD

    TD My GGG Grandfather John "Tanner John" King b 1820

    Every Tan I have ever used where I had salt dryed first seemed to lose the stretch.When I started skipping the salt drying then I got better stretch with all the tanning methods that I used.........Liqua Tan,Lutan F and the [alum tan(when I tryed it years ago)] ..............I used Monte's Tan and got wonderful stretch...........I used a brine soak with Monte,s tan...............
     
  9. hounddoggy

    hounddoggy Member

    985
    1
    hey Tom! I havent salted anything yet to the dry stage.some say thats my problem.some say it was a cold soak before mounting as opposed to a warm soak....tried that.i cant figure if most people measure after and there fore dont have my issues or if im still off.i love the tan i get but i cant continue to do it with the shrinkage and ordering a form 2 sizes smaller than a customers deer isnt appealing to me.A guy came into my teachers shop today.he normally gets his deer done by a guy i assume tans.he charges 550.this guy tells my teacher that he cant see paying the other guy 200 more bucks for a mount that didnt appear any better than my teachers.in the long run i feel dp mounts loose color.thats my opinion and 1 reason i want to tan.1st impressions are alot when a customer picks up a deer.if it comes out of the shop way smaller than it came in...well,thats not any better than a mount that fades with time.ive got lots of thinking to do! you have always been helpful as others have and i appreciate you!
     
  10. cyclone

    cyclone Posts: 400001

    How many different tans have you tried ?
     
  11. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    All right Hounddoggy, I've listened as long as I can. Let's fess up here and get it over with: the tanning process is just too complicated for you. YOU and ONLY YOU have had more problems using one of the most simple tanning agents sold by any supplier. Everyone else in this business using shop tans of all brands, makes and complexeties seem to nave no problems with their products, but YOU find issues. I simply don't know how anyone can "shave" a coyote hide to begin with. If they COULD, I still don't know why they WOULD.

    I learned long, long ago that if I'm doing something that's literally whipping my ass and no one else experiences those problems, the first place I'm going to look for a culprit is in the mirror.

    As Tom says, there's no need to let anything salt DRY. It's an antiquated notion that's still carried on solely because "that's the way I was taught" ....what? A hundred years ago before refrigeration and when a hide had to take a 2 month train ride to get to the tannery??? When the hide stops dripping, the water's gone. Drying it will only mean you have to replace that water that's been removed anyway.

    If you're using JRTS, why are you pickling the hide? Sure, you can, but WHY? In all the instructions I give people, I encourage them to go from the salted hide to painting the tan on. It won't be like that silly assed DP is, but it'll sure be close.

    If it's whipping your ass that bad (obviously it is because you're the only one who's voted for DP in your poll) why don't you send it to a reputable tannery to have it wet tanned or go back to doing it the primitive way.
     
  12. bill@hogheaven

    [email protected] New Member

    8,017
    1
    Watch it George. He will get pissed at you too & leave the site LMAO.
     
  13. michaelf

    michaelf New Member

    You crack me up Bill !I don't understand how anyone can get pissed when someone is trying to give them sound advice ! JMO
     
  14. Stranger things have happened....
     
  15. Becky P

    Becky P One must believe the glass is half full.

    If the craftsmanship is good, the end reults will be the same. I used dp for years but prefer to use a tanned hide, whether tanned in house or commercially.
     
  16. hounddoggy

    hounddoggy Member

    985
    1
    George,you are correct.No Bill,I wont get pissed at George because unlike you,George is helpful and has never been an ass WITHOUT reason or provocation.I agree something is amiss as I seem to have issues that most dont.I will skip the pickle from now on.Some on here say that if i dont pickle,the tan does not "take", some say it simple kills bacteria,then others say it only aids in shaving.I pickled the yote because he was "ify".He turned out great and i will say that jrts is a great tan.To have such major shrinkage is my issue.If it was minor i wouldnt mind.George,some people on here tell me that if i only salt a little bit and dont pickle that im doing no more good than dp.While i dont buy into that,and being a rookie,I am trying to do it right.Like you,my teacher says the pickle is screwing me.So,despite the advice of some,I will no longer pickle.Furthurmore i will continue to salt for a few hours.I didnt vote in my poll......I PROMISE!!Im not giving up either.I have always gotten good advice from you George.My apparent mistake is that I have taken advice from many and have thrown it all together.I havent tried many different tans.Jrts has my vote all the same.It is obvious it is tanning the hides.I have 100% faith in it.When people say,"oh,you didnt salt enough,the salt takes out goop and the tan replaces that goop." Or they say,"you didnt add salt to your rinse,or you HAVE to pickle,well,like i said,I threw alot of different advice together.Next cape gets salt for a few hours,a rinse,and tan.To all of you who say doing it this way is no better than dp,well,Ill let you know.IF I visually feel the tan "takes" as you naysayers say it wont ,i will serve you all some crow.George,you understandibly are tired of my issues.You have bent over backwards to help.I appreciate it.I will get it!Thanks for the help!Bill,I dont dislike you but why take the time to write ugly to me?I wouldnt do that to you or anyone else! Good day to all!
     
  17. TD

    TD My GGG Grandfather John "Tanner John" King b 1820

    You can always try the Krowtan ...............Maybe it will be like using JRTS with out the pickle lol
     
  18. Paul B

    Paul B Active Member

    2,450
    18
    The biggest issue you are having is the capes and hides shrinking on you, right. My question to you is, and I may be wrong, are you letting the piece dry out to much before you are getting ready to mount? They should be damp, not dripping wet, but workable. That may be your problem because salting, forever how long, pickleing, will not cause the problems you are having.
     
  19. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Well, from a chemistry side, I've yet to be "educated" as how a hide taken to 1.0 - 2.5 pH, then neutralized and THEN taken to a 4.5 - 5.0 pH serves any purpose. I do know that a strong pickle (I use 1.0 on mine when I have that "iffy" hide). Pickling will make the hide swell and shaving is much easier. (On thicker hided animals this can prove to be a must.) When you are neutralizing the hide, you MUST use salt in that solution to keep the water from supersaturating the hide leaving you with "acid swell". Salting during any tanning process if vital. The salt eliminates the water in the skin and leaves it "thirsty" so that it will accept the tan. I would never salt any hide less than "overnight" for a shop tan. Make sure the hide is drained well during this process as you don't need the fluids puddling inside the rolled up hide. Krowtann is a different process and those instructions need to be followed closely. The time frame for successfully Krowtanning a hide is about double that of JRTS, that's why my remark about JRTS being the simplest of the "shop tans". From fleshing to mounting takes one day with JRTS and it takes 3-4 with all the others.

    Like Paul B. states, I just think there's something you're either doing wrong or not doing causing your problems.
     
  20. hounddoggy

    hounddoggy Member

    985
    1
    I have NOT added salt when neutralizing.I was told by someone on here not to.I specifically asked about that.I flesh and thin as much as possible,rinse dry with towerl,apply salt.The two deer didnt salt but for 4 hours.The yote was overnight.I towel dried first as it seems foolish to me to add salt to an already dripping hide.After i salted,I rinsed well and put in my pre-mixed pickle.I only have the cheap papers but according to the color code ive been between 1-2.Like you George,I dont see the need to yo-yo the ph.Some on here tell me the pickle "sets up" the skin to "fix"the tan.BS??I am not educated in tanning enough to know.After pickle i rinsed and put in a tub with cold water and added baking soda for around 20 minutes.(no salt)-mistake After that i rinse,towel dry well and apply jrts.I never put the yote in fridge.I left him out for 6hours or a bit more.Next i rinsed briefly in warm water.Dried again and mounted.I was told NOT to add salt to neutralizing bath.Common sense tells me the hide has to be thirsty in order to take in the tan.If saturated,nothing will penetrate.Next hide i get my hands on im going to salt over night,rinse,and tan.I think my issue may be too many un needed steps.To those of you who say i have to pickle or im not tanning:If my hide is thirsty and it absorbs the jrts isnt it getting the ph to 4?If so why take it to 1 then to 5-7 then to 4 with the tan?If that low ph kills bacteria fine.On ify hides i will go that way But from now on its salt and tan.I want to get it right because after using jrts i want each cape i do to have the same results....minus the shrinkage!Im betting its in the pickle some how.Im using mckenzie ultimate acid by the way.5 gallon batch.1lb salt per gallon.3 days.yote was 2 days.I thinned yote but didnt shave it.