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Yo! Junior Rocket Scientists!

Discussion in 'Tanning' started by Glen Conley, Sep 16, 2006.

  1. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    We're moving in on that vase like structure. You can get a better idea of dimension with this photo, plus you can now see what is left of the cells. What is left is the cell membranes, that's what all those little bubbly looking things you're seeing are.

    You should be getting a little better idea of the complexity of skin at the microscopic and cellular level by now.

    I tried to find some kind of pictures in my old bio books on this cellular structure that surrounds the follicle, the best I could do was a pen and ink rendition.

    The cells at this point are empty of contents, and again, what remains are the cell membranes which are made up of primarily phosphorus, and lipids, or fats.

    I want to point out that the cell to cell bond of this structure HAS NOT been broken. The bond that has been broken would be one in which this structure would have been joined to other cells in the epidermis by protein links, with the protein for the linking being produced by other specilaized cells within the epidermis.
     
  2. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    This photo gives a little better idea as to how the sack is made.

    The end still attached to the end of the follicle looks like a fanged space ail yun engulfing the follicle.

    I've got a couple more shots from this shoot that I'll get on tomorrow.
     

  3. Is this the case of the missing collagen? It is the main protein of connective tissue.. ;)
     
  4. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

    2,518
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    Collagen is made up of three primary proteins, glycogen (editors note: someone was having a D.A. attack when they wrote this, that should have been glycine), lysine, and hydroxyproline. These are arranged in a helix, and are the proteins that make up the fiber for the leather.

    These proteins in turn are produced by other specialized epidermal cells that are known as fibroblasts. A "related" cell produces the proteins that make the cell membrane to membrane bonds. I have not been able to come up with what proteins specifically are involved in the membrane to membrane links. There "might" be shared proteins with the collagen.
     
  5. E Fudd

    E Fudd Guest

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collagen
     
  6. Well, the collagen pics from the old forum posts that showed a conglomeration of melted fibers was where I thought you were going with that one. This is actually an absence of tissue. No acid should allow loss of hair when held at 2.0. I guess I will go back to the book on this one.
     
  7. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    These last two photos are new hairs developing. You can see the difference in the shape of the follicle, and see that the cellular sack encapsulates these two follicles also.

    I just sent an e-mail to the guy that had sent the samples originally asking as to which Tide product was used.

     
  8. oldshaver

    oldshaver Guest

    Thanks Glen! Your time is appreciated.
     
  9. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

    2,518
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    You're welcome, oldshaver. You remind me a lot of Sherlock Young. All you had to do was show him a hair follicle and he could take it from there. He was always saying, "Elementary my dear Crick."

    Now, oldshaver, you remember back a couple of years ago when there was a young gal posting on the old forums on a pretty regular basis and she had said that her capes kept tearing when she put them on the form or when she tried to sew them? Then you had told her that you could not tear a tanned cape (for you people that don't know, pro shavers develope Pop Eye forearms). I had asked her in turn if she was using an enzyme.........then she disappeared.

    I had a suspicion that she was one of the people using Liquid Tide to "neutralize" with. I have pointed out before that it is a completely different product than other Tide products (the ones that you keep warning about). Liquid Tide is primarily alcohol and enzymes (MSDS can be found on the web), with the enzymes being proprietary.

    "Laundry enzymes" are most generally going to be enzymes that work on fats and proteins. I don't imagine I have to go too much further with this one.

    I did get an e-mail back from the guy that sent me the samples you saw pictured. The cape WAS "neutralized" with Liquid Tide.

    That saves David the trouble of hitting the books to try and figure out the missing tissue. In a younger day I had learned "Specific enzyme for specific product", or in other words specific enzymes for specific structures.

    To try and get a photo of the cellular structure that encapsulates the follicle would have been close to impossible by what I would have considered conventional means. I suspect that one of the proprietary enzymes in the product has an appetite for the protein, or proteins that make the cell membrane to cell membrane bond for "some" but not all of the bonds of this nature. Notice that the membranes are still bonded in the "follicle sack". To me this would denote a protein or proteins that are more enzyme resistant, which collagen per se could fit that description, and there no doubt are other protein structures that exhibit this quality.

    I have only done one skin sample that had been pickled with formic and then "neutralized" in Liquid Tide. This one displayed the characterisitic "conglomeration of melted fibers" that David wrote about BUT they literally looked like Swiss cheese.

    A friend of mine has been playing around with Liquid Tide on turkey skins and claims some pretty good results, but he also voiced a warning with that claim. That being one of having to be careful with the amounts used and the length of time the skin was exposed to it.

    Enzymes in leather making is nothing new, nor is using alcohol to neutralize an acid, such as when solvent alcohol is applied to a mount that is slipping hair.
     
  10. Glen thanks for the thought provoking thread,

    This post is evolving now into something interesting. As for neutralizing a cape in Liquid Tide, that guy obviously did not heed OS's Tide warning that was posted in the old Forums. I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would want to neutralize a tanned cape above 5, much less in the range that Tide throws you into.

    But, enzymes. Now that is a great topic! Friend or foe, enzymes are going to help or hurt just like any other factor in tanning. You have to know the right amounts and the right kinds. "For every enzyme there is a protein" The other day I got a kick out of a poster putting up in the Forum that "Leather is Leather". OS's reply was simply..."There's one for the ages".
    If he had been more eloquent in his response he could have gone on to say that not all leather is the same. Even from hide to hide within the same species. One of the biggest points that we try to get across to young tanners here is that very thing.

    Experience handling hides ...thousands of hides... and seeing firsthand the subtle differences that go on with leather is vital. VITAL! One enzyme for all hides just won't cut it. For example, if I have a group (or lot) of foxes and I treat them all in the same process with the same chemicals, logic says that they will all come out the same. Maybe in ranching, but in taxidermy tanning not every fox in this case will be the same, even if they are all the same species of fox. The level of prime, fat content, how long the hide was stored before shipping, how it was dried/prepared... etc, all these things go into how that fox will eventually tan. Introducing an enzyme into that group can be great for some of the fox hides and wreak havoc on others.

    Be very careful how you use enzymes. Know what you are doing with them before introducing them into your process or you can end up with a conglomeration of hides that just fall apart when they hit the water.
     
  11. cold trapper

    cold trapper age 15 a trapperman w/7 prime rats!

    i agree on the tide issue. but Bruce Rittel always taught that enzymes would not hurt if over used because they would die off if they did not have a fat molicule to chew on! that is when used in the low ph pickle of course...so im confused, ??? again. Must be fume damage to my brain.. some would say. :-\

    David i love your avatar! :D
    Dat Waskaluly wabbit at WASCO is doomed! :eek:
     
  12. cold trapper

    cold trapper age 15 a trapperman w/7 prime rats!

    Sheesh. Dat Patton is Smart. good post David. leather is certainly not all alike.

    excuse my persiflage.

    Happy New Year Friends of the jewish persuasion!
    saturday that is. ;)
     
  13. cold trapper

    cold trapper age 15 a trapperman w/7 prime rats!

    hey Here is a joke.
    ;D
    if two men are walking and talking in the woods and there are no women around....are they still wrong!

    :D :D ::) ::) :) :) :-[

    my wife says if two men are taliking anywhere they're wrong...

    :-[ :-[..sorry honey. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( that i had fun on the forum!! :-* :-* :-* :-*
     
  14. Nobody wants to take a crack at this one?? I'll post the answer later if it is still hanging around.