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Holding ph level

Discussion in 'Tanning' started by oaktree, Jan 23, 2007.

  1. jrosbor

    jrosbor Member

    NOT TRUE! This brings up a whole different ball of wax. The point is still the same, if you need to maintain the pH, you need to maintain it, not JUST compinsate for it up front.
     
  2. jrosbor

    jrosbor Member

    I am not a true chemist, people like Cyclone, and Glen can probably explain this better than I can. pH is a very hard thing to understand because it is so basic. We look at pH as an object but if you want to measure it, you have to think different. It takes a great deal of math to predict and adjust for pH. The best example I can think of is X * X= -pH But X * X * X= -pH * 2 and so forth... My puter does not have the ability to add exponets to text so it's kinda hard to explain In working terms; water has a pH of 7 so one ounce of water has a value of 7 (seven) so it will take 7 (seven) ounces of water to have the same effect on pH, as adding 1 (one) ounce of a fluid or water with a pH of 6. Does this make some sense? This is why we get away with adding small amounts of a strong acid up front, but it takes much more of that strong acid to lower the pH beyond what our initial adjustment gave us.
     

  3. cyclone

    cyclone Posts: 400001

    Again...:

    pH is a concentration of hydrogen ions. When you pickle, the hydrogen ions are reacting with the hide proteins. Hydrogen ions do all the work preparing active sites for the tan to react with.
    The concentration of hydrogen ions goes down....the pH goes up...and vice versa..

    pH is expressed as a logarithm. A change of 1 pH unit is is a 10 fold change in the hydrogen ion concentration.

    As the hydrogen ions are used up the pH will rise.

    quoting jrosbor...This is why we get away with adding small amounts of a strong acid up front, but it takes much more of that strong acid to lower the pH beyond what our initial adjustment gave us.

    This is known as the ionic strength of a solution. 1 hydrogen ion will react with 1 hydroxide ion (OH-) to give 1 water molecule.

    H+ + OH- ---->H2O.


    1 hydrogen ion will also react with 1 active unit on protein or fat or collagen. Once it does it is used up and no longer adds to the pH of a solution....so the pH rises..

    as a result, a pickle must have more hydrogen ions available than the counter ions (from the hides) available.

    Most acids used for pickling are not considered "strong" acids...by a chemist's definiton. Weak acids; citric, formic, acetic(vinegar), oxalic, sulfurous...etc.. do not donate all of their hydrogen ions to a solution initially. Strong acids do..Hydrochloric(muratic), sulfuric, perchloric..nitric..etc.

    Keeping written records of pH requirments for any reaction or solution is what all good scientists or tanners would do..My pickle is going to be different than OS's pickles or jrosbor's pickle even if we use the same basic ingredients.

    This is one reason why I asked oaktree if he perhaps changed locations of his pickling. Certain gasses are absorbed by water solutions and it can dramatically change pH. Carbon dioxide is one gas that will lower pH... ammonia is one that will raise it.


    I'll quit before someone coins me as the pH cop!... ;)
     
  4. oldshaver

    oldshaver Guest

    H2Oeatmine. I wonder who this is? Some jealous sob. My name is Aubrey Young. Identify yourself, you chicken s--t. You also have a reading comprehention problem. You are another LOOSER wanna-be tanner, that wishes I would come to work for you, so you could give up your part-time job at MacDonalds. After thinking about it, you might just be one of those snake oil salesmen, peddeling at-home tanning products, that is having a hard time making ends meet. Whats the matter, your crap in a bottle not selling as good as it used to.
     
  5. jrosbor

    jrosbor Member

    Hey Copper! Yer gettin too technical.

    I saw in my chemistry book at one time a chart that showed the exponets and how they are used to determin pH, it also had a temp scale for adjustments. Any way, it looks something like the chart below. (yall see the need to add more acid to lower the pH less and less?)

    pH 0= 1 H+
    pH 1= .01 H+
    pH 2= .001 H+
    pH 3= .0001 H+
    pH 4= .00001 H+
    pH 5= .000001 H+
    pH 6= .0000001 H+
    pH 7= .00000001 H+
    pH 8= .000000001 H+
    pH 9= .0000000001 H+
    pH 10= .00000000001 H+
    pH 11= .000000000001 H+
    pH 12= .0000000000001 H+
    pH 13= .00000000000001 H+
    pH 14= .000000000000001 H+

    Or you could look at it like this:

    pH 0= .00000000000001 OH-
    pH 1= .0000000000001 OH-
    pH 2= .000000000001 OH-
    pH 3= .00000000001 OH-
    pH 4= .0000000001 OH-
    pH 5= .000000001 OH-
    pH 6= .00000001 OH-
    pH 7= .0000001 OH-
    pH 8= .000001 OH-
    pH 9= .00001 OH-
    pH 10= .0001 OH-
    pH 11= .001 OH-
    pH 12= .01 OH-
    pH 13= .1 OH-
    pH 14= 1 OH-

    Until this is followed, and understood, it's just going to be a guessing game. (Or, "Tanning ain't rocket science")
     
  6. jrosbor

    jrosbor Member

    Slow down OS! It's "McDonalds"... Them's is words that can get people in trouble.
     
  7. oldshaver

    oldshaver Guest

    Im used to thinking in terms of Big Mac. Every once in a while, I will eat 2, along with a super size fri, to satisfy the cholesterol fix. I feel I have been mistaken for someone who really gives a s--t.
     
  8. cold trapper

    cold trapper age 15 a trapperman w/7 prime rats!

    Hey old man, shaver man! you go man!!!.... we love ya!!! :) :) :) :) :)

    This H20 boy. well he ain't worth your time or trouble. but we love ya Oldshave !!!

    :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*

    Wonder if his shoes are untied? :p :p
     
  9. cyclone

    cyclone Posts: 400001

    I understand what you're gettin at jrosbor but a solution with a pH of 1 is actually 6.02 X1022 hydrogen ions in one liter of water.

    Thats 60,200,000,000,000,000,000,000 hydrogen ions in one liter... ;)

    and you other fellers be nice....
     
  10. H2O89

    H2O89 New Member

    17
    0
    Thanks Cyclone, Thanks JROSBOR,

    Oldshaver and his peanut gallery:

    My Dad can beat up your Dad!

    There take that and put it in your Big Mac! I won't call you a big fat dummy, but isn't "MacDonald's" the fat farm and isn't your hometown spelled Raleigh not Raliegh?

    I feel sooooo welcome here!
     
  11. H2O89

    H2O89 New Member

    17
    0
    Mr. Oldshaver,

    You still are a horse's ass!

    I am Anne White and I wouldn't have someone like you working for me if you were the last tanner on earth!!

    Just had to come back one last time since you were sooooooo nice to me.
     
  12. Oh my,
    Ya'll are still at the old pH argument? OS and Cyclone are right about keeping records on solutions. Also, something that bears a repeat is the calcium warnings. Calcium in the new feed salts that TSC and others are peddling will make a big change in pH for pickles. The stuff is good for salting only and I would still use the white fine stuff for that. I had posted earlier to the forum about the change that TSC had in their feed salt line, the results are in. We stay away from that stuff.
    Been away for awhile. Good to see that things are going well around here!
    Hey OS,
    We were all wondering, Do you give a sh*t? Trying to get a read on it....yes I think that crusty feller is a caring person!! LOL
    Don't let the little buggers get to ya'. Keep a swingin'!
     
  13. oldshaver

    oldshaver Guest

    Anne, here was your original reply, while interupting a discussion, that you have little knowledge about., in the first place. " Might want to hold those opinions to your self old guy if that is the best you can come up with." You were being disrespectful of another's opinion, from the start. From what I can see, most of these people agree with me. I see you are 13 years old, so I am not going to argue with you anymore. If you are an aspiring Taxidermist, I hope you do well, and become the next Amy Richie.(I forgot Amy's new last name)
     
  14. paul e

    paul e New Member

    1,372
    0
    to much typing
    kiss
    stop rot=good outcome
     
  15. Yellow_Dart

    Yellow_Dart New Member

    9
    0
    The pH level of our body is one of the most important determining factors of good health. pH is also measured quite often in laboratories and household and can be done with the help of pH strips that are easily available at local pharmacies
     
  16. R.J. Meyer II

    R.J. Meyer II Member

    746
    4
    For you and any other dumba-s out there, that means, after pickling overnight, and adding acid, and salt, the next day, the ph will usually

    I am missing something here. If I have my pickle mixed up correctly and add rehydrated skins I know the ph will drop so I need to add acid on the next day and it will normally stablize for me. I don't understand adding more salt. Is the skin pulling salt out of the pickle?
     
  17. Rhino

    Rhino Too many irons in the fire will put the fire out!

    WOW! A thread from over 2 1/2 years ago? I guess folks do read the archives?

    RJ, what you meant to say, I know, Is your PH will rise.

    For home tanning purposes, I have always recommended adding more salt, when adding acid. Most folks out there, don't have salinometers. Even if you do, they don't give accurate readings, beyond the first CLEAN pickle mixing. After a skin has entered the solution, overnight, any accuracy is gone.

    To remain on the safe side, in my opinion, it is best to add around 1lb of salt, per 5 gallons of pickle, especially when combating a .5 or more rise in PH. The addition of salt, will give you the confidence of knowing you are keep the acid in check.(not eating your skins up)

    Skins DO absorb salt. To what extent, I don't know? One would have to assume this, because, skins tanned in a solution, with much salt, will the show evidence. The hair, will "wick" salt, on the tips.

    Skip the bickering, in this thread, AND READ THE WHOLE THING, and you will discover, that Cyclone has offered up a WEALTH of information on the subject! Thanks Cyclone! I love reading your responses! ;D
     
  18. Rhino

    Rhino Too many irons in the fire will put the fire out!

    I have been doing some reading. The answer to your question, about the skin absorbing salt, is yes. I already knew that.

    The answer is, the skins are absorbing 23-25% of the salt, in the origional pickle. So, my reccomendation of the addition of one pound of salt per 5 gallons of water, when adjusting the rise in PH was pretty close. My reccomendation was 20%, with the addition of more acid.
     
  19. R.J. Meyer II

    R.J. Meyer II Member

    746
    4
    Old Shaver, Thanks for the explaination, it makes sense when you explain it like that. R.J.
     
  20. Rhino

    Rhino Too many irons in the fire will put the fire out!

    Hudson, I agree with you, to an extent. Too much salt, will reduce a tans "effectiveness". BUT, salt is your only line of defense against acid rot.

    A skin mounted, with less than a through tan, due to too much salt, will most likely never be noticed, for years to come.

    On the other hand, many Taxidermists, WILL reuse their pickle solution, and only pay attention to its PH. NOW, we have a problem!.

    A Taxidermist mixes a 10 gallon pickle, with 10lbs of salt, for 2 deer capes. After shaving, etc, said pickle, now is left with 7.5lbs of salt, after the absorbing of salt. Still OK. PH has now risen, and the Taxidermist adds a little acid to bring the pickle back down to 2. He or she, then adds 2 more capes, to the same pickle. Shaves, etc, then removes them. NOW the SAME pickle, is left with around 1/2 pound of salt, per gallon of pickle. He or she, then ADDS MORE ACID, only concerned with PH? NOW, the trouble starts!

    The salt consentration, starts losing its control of the acids ability, to destroy the skin structure. The 3rd reuse of the pickle, without adding salt, is walking a fine line. The fourth reuse of said pickle, with a PH of 2, will GURANTEE skin degradation, in some form.

    My only point here, is, "add 1lb of salt, per 5 gallons of pickle, every time you make a PH adjustment, and add new skins, and your skins will be fine!" Still, you should make a NEW pickle, every chance you get.