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The NTA Score Sheet and Judge

Discussion in 'The Taxidermy Industry' started by *, Jul 16, 2009.

  1. Bobbi Meyer

    Bobbi Meyer I luv to ride my tricycle, I luv to ride my trike

    I like Josh's mention of 4 different judges for each piece, then taking the average of their scores...only problem might possibly be finding that many judges, or how long it would take to complete the judging.
     
  2. Cole

    Cole Amateur Taxidermist

    Finding them would be easy, paying them however would not.
     

  3. Kim Owens

    Kim Owens Are we there yet?

    Very similar to the way the World does it
     
  4. *

    * Liberalism IS A MENTAL ILLNESS !

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    Well somebody gets my point
     
  5. The only Issue I see with worlds method as all the judges can discuss it.
    The way it should be done is NO discussion between the judges.
    If you are already a "Judge" then Judge, you dont need to "talk it over" with other judges.

    As for paying them.
    Most shows I was involved in they were not payed. sure they got room and board, but that's it.

    I guess I just see the potential for lots of conflict of interests and discussion between judges (strong armed persuasion) lol

    There is alot of money in this game, and a LOT of perks to winning the big named awards.
    This is why I dont always buy into the "we do it for fun" thoughts.

    I also take issue with Judges competing. My view is once you hit Judge status you are done competing.
    to much conflict of interest there.

    If this was all small potatos then I could care less, but like I said there is prestige and money in these awards.
    so you cant treat this as small potatos.
     
  6. snowhare

    snowhare New Member

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    Dennis

    As some of you may know i am from over that big pond , The Netherlands , and i just want to say a fiew words here , and i do not wat to iinvolve with your NTA , just explane a fiew things that happed to me.

    First of all is looks that where ever you go on this darn planet it is the same every where with Taxidermists Asosiationts , i have bin here a long time ago , i was whooped out like 7 years ago for a couple of reasons , first i won a lot of competitions , and at first the so called dcollegs say great job man shake your hand and on , than after you win a fiew more times they start to dis like you , for the one and only reason that you stick your neck out and that it is easy to cut your head of.

    So afer a have watched this for a fiew years i say , i ll be the judge next time , man i tell you that was the loest score ever , not that i dislike the persons but just because i was honnest with my scoring sheets , i had problems with the former judges just because I WAS THINKINFG THEYRE MOUNTS LOOK LIKE CRAP SO WHAT THE HELL DO THEY THINK HERE , so they disided to whoop my but for a coulple of reasons.

    I sold all my competition work inc the stuppid ribbons , and told them enyoi it dont want nothing to do with them any more just about had it

    And about the score sheet well that pissed me of every time , first some judge says like theese plants dont grow in the habbitah of that animal , the paint job is wrong and BLA BLA BLA BLA, i go for the over all looks of the mount

    DENNIS just go your own way , stay there , and kick some arse

    GR from over the pond

    just had to say sommething here ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
     
  7. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    Dennis, you made your point the right way. Unfortunately, they made a point too. Their loss. Thats a shame. Hey, screw it, you and me got plans anyway, right? I too am FED UP. Hope NOBODY calls me now wanting to know what I said between the lines. D-man, lets get busy!
     
  8. Doug Motgomery

    Doug Motgomery Active Member

    Dennis, Don't lose any sleep over it it is not worth it, I told you my score and i don't know how they can be off that much from show to show. 95 to 75. But i will keep on keeping on. My friend I been to a few shows with you and your work is above and beyond taxidermy,Its the love of it. And you my friend love it........See ya at the next shows
     
  9. *

    * Liberalism IS A MENTAL ILLNESS !

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    ;D ;D
    Yes Bill , We have plans, ;D
    Big Plans ;D




    Thanks Doug, I consider you a good friend, my friend.
    I'll keep annoying certain judges with my work. ;D ;D ;D
     
  10. Harum

    Harum Active Member

    Josh,

    I'm not a bit surprised that you can see the conflict of interest involved here. I'm certain your point of view comes from your experience in the Art world. As we both know the politics that are played out in the art community are far reaching and can be quite overwhelming. The judging set up that is used by the art world is there for a reason. It would be a wise move to follow that formula. Will it ever become a mainstay in taxidermy competitions? I could only hope. Control however is a powerful and addictive thing. There would be many that would not like to relinquish this control.

    Dennis,

    As far as the score sheet goes. I have often wondered why If I spend the time creating my own eyes from scratch that I don't receive any additional points over someone that uses off the shelf eyes. The same could be said for the way I create my heads. My heads are open mouth open gill, I paint the entire inside including veining, the chalky appearance to the leading edges of the gills as well as the gills themselves. The gill plates are as thin as the actual species and you will find no seams yet my competitor will receive the same bonus points for a much less difficult open mouth closed gill head with basic interior paint work… I've read in this post where people say that if you elevate your technical side you will clean house. I say unless they start to give additional points (beyond current levels) for difficulty of the processes involved and include the written values of deductions we will all still be at the mercy of the people in control and many of the more innovative ideas will be wasted.


    -Pete
     
  11. *

    * Liberalism IS A MENTAL ILLNESS !

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    Exactly
     
  12. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    I hope you all will understand that some judges DO give those points. In fact, even where theres no more points as bonus points to be given, its STILL figured in to the overall score. The stuff done well and by the competitor, if accurate, does influence the score to the benefit of the mount. Trust me...Im one of them.
     
  13. *

    * Liberalism IS A MENTAL ILLNESS !

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    I've talked an length with you Bill ,about it.
    I know you are, but I believe you and a handfull of others are the exception not the rule.
    The piece must first be tight, and should not stand on it's difficulty alone.
    I would never expect it to.
     
  14. True but you said it all right there Bill.

    SOME judges do.
    thus implying some dont.

    and why? because they arent required to do so.

    Is this a hobby? or a profession?
    Is this Art of Craft?

    This is the big decision that needs to be made, once and for all.


    Pete I agree with you 100% on the subject of not being rewarded for doing extra.
    It seems it has become the new American way.
    Why reward hard work when mediocrity will do?
    I dealt with this in School.
    I would work for hundreds of hours on a sculpture, and would produce a product that is far superior then what was required, only to have my grade be identical to someone who did the bare minimum of work.
    Luckily I drive myself on my own work ethic and not the minimum of what the world expects of me.
     
  15. antlerman

    antlerman NTA Life Member #0118

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    I don't know if I've thought this out enuf yet. But, I keep thinking that first off there should be two different score sheets. One for Masters and one for professional, and lower. Now here's why I say that.

    In the masters category, you are encouraged to cast your own parts, sculpt your own forms, your artistic expression should be an original and ect. When I think of a master taxi, I think of someone who can pulloff technically correct pieces with little thought into it. Whereas, a professional person may have to work at that a little harder. I also think most professionals use store bought parts and their challenge is more so in using those parts correctly.

    It seems wrong to judge the two categories with the same score sheet. I would expect to see things out of a master sheet that would not appear on a prof. sheet, simply because.

    I also think that a score sheet should have perhaps three columns. Perhaps if you think about a B and C antler score sheet for a second you will see what I'm getting at.
    Column one would have a point value for things a judge liked about your mount. Depending on the number of items to be scrutinized, a point factor based on it's importance would be assigned. Say eye anatomy had a total value of 5 pts, covering such things as rotation, depth, angle, shape and symmetry. In the column beside it a judge could use that column to deduct points. Say he didn't agree with your depth and angle, he could deduct 2 pts. In the last column lets say he thinks you did an exceptional job on one of those aspects and decides he wants to give you a bonus pt of 1. Now he has had the opportunity to award you points for your eyes alone. It has NOTHING to do with your ears, just eyes. He has been able to award, deduct and award again for something outstanding.

    If there were lets just say 20 area's of judgement with a 5 pt average that's 100 pts total. However, if in scoring it you lost 10 pts in column 2 but gained 4 pts in column 3, your final score would be a 94.
    With each area of judgement both a judge and competitor should be able to look at that score sheet and be able to decipher it.

    The reason 2 separate score sheets would obviously be so that different criteria could be placed on the two based on what you would expect from a solid professional piece vs a Masters piece.

    Also, I'm not sure if I like only three places awarded in the masters division. I think that detours people from competing at the higher levels unless they can dominate a category. I know of shows where this guy does well with this species and this guy does well with that species and by the time you cover 5 or 6 categories, the same people win every year and no one challenges the others. It's a trophy and ribbon club. I think if you did away with that more people would compete.

    Furthermore, I think a person should compete at Nationals and World in whatever category they would normally compete at in a state show. The professional category at the NTA and Worlds is dominated by otherwise Master taxidermist that wouldn't fair so well there. So, my point is, if you are a big boy here, why not be a big boy there? I think it would encourage those with less experience to compete at the nat. and world level. And it would force the masters to get more on top of their game so to speak.

    As a side note concerning Dennis. I don't know what class * competed at. Whatever class it was, its hard for me to believe the scores of 70 & 72. However if it was a class that had only three places awarded and * came in third.........OK, but is that a fair assessment of his piece?? It can't be. Perhaps it too was a first place piece but was out scored by two other pieces. Does he then have to settle for a third place ribbon when his piece was a second or first place piece??

    I too do not like the system. I don't know if what I'm thinking would work or not, but I surely think its a start that needs some tuning and adjusting by the gods. If the powers to be could get together and devise a system that was a FAIR assessment, and have some consistency to it, with less personal opinion, I think you would find a much more content competitor in all of us. Peace
     
  16. Josh my friend, the part about judges not competing once you reach that STATUs is wrong in my opinion. Judging is not a status, although it appears to many to be. I believe judging is a earned priveledge, problem is some judges are judging way over their own work level. i heard a discussuin this week that judges SHOULD have to compete once a year at a big show and do well in it. Sort of like every year having to attain a certain amount of credits to retain that "status'. If you have never mounted a certain species, never won with it, and never competed with it, you should NOT be allowed to judge it. Plain and simple, you are not qualified!!
     
  17. *

    * Liberalism IS A MENTAL ILLNESS !

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    Kinda like knowing what Venom sacks ;D are right ?? ;D ;D
     
  18. Exactly!
     
  19. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    I know where you guys are coming from, but I have to disagree with the idea of a judge having to compete or of one having to mount a specimen before judging it. Tom, I know some of the wacky lizards and snakes you mess with, but you can't tell me that mounting a chameleon is any different from mounting a Komodo lizard when it comes to anatomy. IF- and that's a HUGE "IF" - a judge maintains perspective and looks for anatomical and cosmetic anamolies, then anyone could judge anything. Just like taxidermy, this ain't rocket science.

    I alway use Ken Bauman's story as proof. Years back in Lubbock, Ken had one of the finest largemouth bass mounts I'd ever seen. His open mouthed, fighting mount took second place to some goofy assed closed mouth orange saltwater fish. When he inquired about his critique, he was told that he didn't get a blue because the form he'd used was the judge's form and that if he'd given Ken the blue, someone MIGHT have complained about his being impartial. Now THAT is what has happened to taxidermy judging. I never mounted an iguana in my life, but if I could see overspray, shrinkage, and the mount smelled, I could see that. If I had reference pictures, I could also tell any anamolies on the mount and I WOULDN'T have to have an AofE to do it. That's why it's utterly stupid for an elephant mount not to be given some "shock and awe" value when compared to a hummingbird as well. The days of the micro-tweets winning major competitions are insulting to the industry IN MY OPINION. If the damned scrotum on a lifesized bull elk happens to be a quarter inch off center, then any judge who grades down for it should be kicked in the same place to see how his hangs.
     
  20. rj9289

    rj9289 Buck the system, be an individual, be who you are.

    thats exactly what i was saying in the thread i started yesterday. i agree voya.