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The NTA Score Sheet and Judge

Discussion in 'The Taxidermy Industry' started by *, Jul 16, 2009.

  1. IN MY OPINION. If the damned scrotum on a lifesized bull elk happens to be a quarter inch off center.

    If thats a deduction, then all those PBR bulls are anatomiclly incorrect as they buck.....

    If the mount is standing still, maybe the fault like the scrotum is worth a mention on the score sheet, but is it worth a deduction of points? Only of its a tie for a Best of Cat. award or larger award.

    If I could put the action into mounts like Dennis, I would cleanup all the good awards, so what if it gets a third place, those other awards is what counts to me.
  2. bill@hogheaven

    [email protected] New Member

    Well if you think the judge should have to win with a species to judge it lets look at gameheads. Do you think there is anyone in the world that has won with all of the available species? How many judges do you hire to cover all bases? What happens if a "ringer" species is entered? Its unworkable & an insult to anyone foolish enough to judge in the first place. The only solution is big boxes of ribbons at the door. Let each competitor pick out the color he wants when he enters.

  3. Bobbi Meyer

    Bobbi Meyer I luv to ride my tricycle, I luv to ride my trike

    I need a blue, red and green one to complete my set
  4. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    LMAO Bill. I think you've said that before and more and more each day, I'm beginning to think that's probably the best idea out there.
  5. jim tucker

    jim tucker Active Member

    Now that's funny.

    Requiring a judge to MOUNT the specimens he judges is a ridiculous idea. There is NO WAY you can have experience mounting EVERYTHING!?! Even if you ahve experience who says you did it WELL?

    For example Pescado's "goby" that won the World. I have caught plenty of those things...but I have NEVER been asked to mount one. In fact If I was judging fish there are some trout and salmon I have never mounted. We NEVER get them here.

    What if you are the bird judge and someone enters a Bald Eagle or a Kiwi. How many have had the chance to do one of those?

    You don't have to have mounted a giraffe to judge if it is good taxidermy.
    Don't even get me started on reptiles.
  6. bill@hogheaven

    [email protected] New Member

    George...sometimes the simplest solution is the best one.
  7. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    Georges simplistic approach is correct, in that we can certainly sort out most mounts based on the usual suspects, general anatomy, craftmanship and appearance. That works on the average show mount on a typical day. But, when you get to a show the size of the world, or a larger state show, or the NTA and have a higher level of participation by herps and other specialists, thats not going to be enough. Those guys know males from females by subtleties we dont know using Georges proven method. Theres a time and place, and theres also a time where the judging needs to reflect the competition, too. Many of you do not know this, but I once judged birds and fish at the world show. Yep, you can even ask Larry. But, you KNOW id have declined if asked to judge the Master division fish or birds, because at that level, I am simply not qualified.

    Just because a group might be foolish to ask a judge to do something he cannot do, doesnt mean the judge cannot say...no thank you, Im not qualified.
  8. RDA

    RDA Active Member

    Hey Bill should I say what ALL this is really about??
  9. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    Ron, to quote our southern friends...you "might could".
  10. I agre that any one judge could never be required to mount every specie they judged. BUT, I believe they should not put their ignorance of a specie into a negitive score.


    My newborn baby goat I mounted for this last year's state show.

    I never expected the judge, or many others, to understand the anatomy of a 24 hour old domestic Boer goat. Anybody who has seen a newborn animal (of ANY specie) and then the same animal 2-3 weeks later knows that muscle and fat build up is dramatically diffrent. I included 14 pictures of the same newborn goat along side the mount, with one finishing picture of our older babies running in the grass just to show we raise them, and as a "nice" picture to finish an album of mostly gruesome skinned goat pictures and form carving. Out of all the newborn pictures, the judge told me he used the one last picture of an older baby goat as his reference. WHY? I tried to explain this, but he didnt understand. I lost a LOT of points due to "lack of muscle" around the eyes, jaw, nose, earbutt, etc. when in reality, a newborn does not have any heavy muscle in any of those areas.... as indicated in the photos.
  11. George and Bill, let me clarify. I was in error when I said specie. What i meant was CATEGORY!!! If you have never mounted a fish, how can you judge them. If you have never mounted a bird, how can you judge them, etc etc. I did not mean individual species within a category, i meant the category in general. Now you can get a rough idea using reference of what a typical mammal looks like( eye sets, mouth, lips, tail, feet, etc. But unless you have taken one apart and know its physiology, and structure, there is no way in hell you can judge it running up a tree, climbing down a hole, or running at full gait IMO, especially in the masters division, and big shows. ANNA, your post is the exact reason the judge has to be familiar with anatomy. Reference is only good for the basics!!
  12. Kerby Ross

    Kerby Ross KSU - Class of '83; U.S. Army - Infantry (83-92)

    The problem with............

    I agree that a fish judge can judge just about any fish without ever having mounted that particular species of fish....................the problem with reptiles is that all reptiles aren't the same anatomically like other taxidermy categories.

    For example...... (this is not about a particular judge) a reptile judge that has earned his merits with mounting rattlesnakes through the NTA judges sainthood may not know squa-dooosch about lizards. Getting on a computer and googling pics of lizards is so SAD....because most of the pics aren't even the species they say they are. And the judge is ignorant that he can't even identify that, so hence I get docked on points from reference off a computer that isn't even the species I have at the show....and the judge doesn't even know that.

    Trust me not all reptile judges can judge all reptiles. It isn't like fish where most of the fish are anatomically the same. Reptiles ARE NOT ANATOMICALLY THE SAME ! Snakes don't have external ears, they don't have eyelids, most don't have wrinkles, heck not all have pits LOL .....but lizards HAVE eyelids, they HAVE external ear openings,...........AND THEY HAVE WRINKLES.

    Over half of the "reptile judges" out there CANNOT accurately judge lizards.......most don't even know the different species of rattlesnakes in the U.S. If a reptile judge has to ask "what kind of rattlesnake is that" before judging that piece, then we have a problem.....and then proceed to take points off.

    I have no problem getting docked on points from a judge but when they start pulling comments out of their arse is hard to take.

  13. GBRUCH

    GBRUCH "I am nothing without christ".....John 15:5

    Kerby the same argument is in the fish catagory too. Some believe there are coldwater and warmwater judges I would guess it also exists in birds like waterfowl and gamebirds too.

    I really like the ribbon choice too-lol ;D. The entry comes with the standard yellow ribbon but you can "upgrade" for an additional fee $10 for red and $20 for a blue.
  14. Kerby, great points especially about rattlers. i have a great book here called Rattlesnake( silent predator). It has awesome photos of every rattlesnake on the planet. There are at least a dozen different eye sets between species. Some have bulging eyes, some have the outer curve at the edge of the eye shield, and some have they eyes buries deep way under the sheild. Some have the slit pupile cantered forward 10 degrees, some have them straight, some have them cantered backwards, and some have round pupils. If you dont know the species, you cannot judge that snake no way in hell!! Damn, i found two species of desert vipers where the eyes are facing angled up!!!!!
  15. Kerby

    ""Over half of the "reptile judges" out there CANNOT accurately judge lizards.......most don't even know the different species of rattlesnakes in the U.S. If a reptile judge has to ask "what kind of rattlesnake is that" before judging that piece, then we have a problem.....and then proceed to take points off.""

    This is exactly another reason whey you need a panel of judges, and for reptiles that should include a Biologist who is familiar with the species or as familiar as you can be.
    Although I disagree about fish being the same, or even similar. they very as much as reptiles or any other animal.
    Each judge will look at slightly different things, Anatomy, technicality, artistic merit..........
    Whats beautiful is they dont even need to force this each judge will naturally (more often then not) Judge based on their strengths.
    AS long as they are left ALONE to do so. none of this group chit chat what do you think of this and that between the judges.


    ""Some believe there are coldwater and warmwater judges""

    I somewhat agree with that though.
    Some Judges are far more familiar with "coldwater" fish then they are with "warmwater"
    I see some who are judging that don't have experience with a type of species being judged.

    For instance a "coldwater" judge Judging a pike the same way they would a trout. (this is based on an actual competition a friend was in)

    This judge marked down huge points for the fin positioning of the pectoral fins.
    The artist had the fins placed 100% accurately but the judge kept comparing them to a trout.
    Trout pectoral fins are COMPLETELY different the any of the Esox clan. Wildly different.
    Even pectoral fins and the physical structure under the skin on a Char and Trout are very different as well.

    What constitutes a coldwater or a warmwater species?
    It sure isnt water temperature.

    I believe Paul's Goby, was in the Warmwater category? Yet it is a coldwater fish. (preferring water temperature below 65 degrees)
    so it cant be water temp.
    (Awesome Goby Paul!! I saw higher rez pics recently, too freaking cool)

    Is it fin placement?
    If so that worries me for the same reasons I mentioned above.
    If I do a silver redhorse mount for a show and have the paired fins compared to a trout by a Judge, I AM SCREWED!
    Totally different in shape structure and function.
    What about a carp?
    Again fin unions and function, position and structures (you are a koi guy I so I know you know the difference. lol)

    As a judge Gary what is your take on this subject? How do you deal with species you are not 100% confidant about?

    It seems like more and more you have two options in competitions if you want to guarantee accuracy from a judge.
    A trout or a bass.
    Although it was awesome to see a gar get lovin! so who knows things may be changing.

    I guess I am concerned by issues similar to those that Kerby mentioned.
    Not enough structure and accountability with the way things are set up now, and until that changes I doubt I will be in the arena. at least not at a national or world level where the stakes are so high.

    After all we do this for fun dont we ;)
  16. pyeager1

    pyeager1 Active Member

    Sorry smartass, I've still never heard of him.
  17. michael p.

    michael p. Getting better with age :)

  18. Joel edwards pal
  19. ljones

    ljones 1994 wasco award winner

    how about going back to the days when competions only gave out one first , second ,third and honorable mention ribbons per category ? one of the ribbons i am the proudest of came from the 1984 show at Roxboro NC its only a honorable mention for a deer head but the guys that got the first ,second and third in deer heads were Joe Coombs ,Johnny Coombs and Don Mathis and then my little old honorable mention and thats all that were given out, so i felt like i was in pretty good company even though i came in last.
  20. WHAT??

    First, Second and Third???
    The awards ceremony could only last an hour???
    what would people do?????

    and then perhaps not everyone gets a ribbon.

    scary thought.