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What makes in house tanning diff from a tannery?

Discussion in 'Tanning' started by rarestjewels, Dec 6, 2009.

  1. Steve Rotramel

    Steve Rotramel We got some radical rebels in this county!

    "Autotanners, if auto tanners are so good so fast and so cheap to use...Why don't all the tanneries use them? If anyone had the real need and demand for speed and efficiency it would be the tanneries...and yet no major tannery owns one? why? Because they are a waste of money and don't do as good of a job; if they did a better job and did it faster we would all have some."

    Several "major" tanneries do own them. In fact they bought them from me. And another couple have made their own 300 gallon+ versions. Now you're the one talking about something you know nothing about.
     
  2. Steve,
    with over 160 years of tanning experience on our staff we are not newbies to the world of tanning, ...we currently tan about 300 pieces a week, times 52 weeks and have for the last 20 years,so lets say just over 15,000 per year times 20 years = 312,000 pieces tanned for taxidermy all this with a staff of 10 employees....now before that we tanned alot more...we had 50 employees on 3 shifts and we were doing tractor trailer loads of mink, fox, and sable each week for the garment industry so for the 15 years before we were tanning 5 times our current volume 15,000 times 5 times the volume time 15 years = another 1,125,000 pieces combined to total up aproximately 1,437,000 pieces in the last 35 years, i wont even begin to count the pieces form the 30 years spent by the Ann's dad <Leslie> running a sheep tannery in Austrailia.
    In the begining of my response i touched briefly on the the tanneries that dont even blend their own chemicals they simply buy 55 gallon drums of the same premade product from knoblachs and others that you can buy in a quart ffrom any taxidermy supply house...They have no chemist on staff at thier tannery...they cant even begin to explain whats happening they are simply following the directions on the side of the drum ....personally i dont consider these tanneries they are home or bucket tanners on steroids...if they are you customers enough said...so tell us some major tanneries that own them? love to talk to them and get some "major tannery" Feedback

    Now let me ask you Steve becuase i dont know you but i am gonna assume you make and sell these things based on your statement....how many pieces have you tanned in your lifetime? becuase if your gonna question our experience you better have alot more than we do to start with.

    and since your so knowledgeable in tanning expalin to me how it all works...not the chemicals cause i dont care what formula your using we are not gonna change our formulas...but more importantly explain to me how your "Autotanner" makes it so much better .... is it a pressure tanner or a vaccum tanner? whats the difference between a pressure tanner and a vacum tanner? how much does it cost? how can it revolutionize and industry thats dates back to before the pyramids were built? do you recomend salting the skins dry before they go into the "Auto tanner"? why? or why not?

    Heres your chance to really in detail explain why this is the next best thing since the fleshing wheel or is it more like the infamous "guttin stic"? Convince me, convince the rest of us we might all buy one and you can make a fortune. If its better faster cheaper we will rip out our stainless steel paddle vats and wet drums and put in your "AUTOTANNER"
     

  3. Kevin M.

    Kevin M. Active Member

    I have one and it works for me. But I know. I'm just a little noboby in southern Indiana!!!
     
  4. Steve Rotramel

    Steve Rotramel We got some radical rebels in this county!

    Tanneries tan more efficiently because they have bigger equipment. The automatic tanner tans a few capes very quickly, so it's ideal for a taxidermy shop. You could probably use one as a sample drum, but I wouldn't recommend one for your main processes.

    I can even get you a discount. Don't worry, you won't be wasting your money.

    The automatic tanner speeds processes because it "packs" the chemicals. An analogous example would be a firecracker as compared to a shotgun shell. The firecracker explodes because it's packed tighter and the burn happens faster. Simple as that, and you're right - it doesn't matter the chemical.



    I have no idea how many pieces I've tanned, and I wasn't questioning your skill or experience or product. You were questioing mine, and that's the only issue I was speaking to.

    As far as if they work, or if they are a waste of money - why not ask a few of the thousands who have wasted their money on one.
     
  5. Kevin M.

    Kevin M. Active Member

    Steve, Every deer I have tanned in 6 years. let alone the wall handgers and lifesize. Has been in a autotanner. They work. !!!!!!
     
  6. craigjw

    craigjw http://www.back2lifetaxidermy.com

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    I have one tannery that I felt did the best work. If I sent them in during the rush in november, I got them back in 4-6 months. If I sent them in during a slow time in april, I got them back in 2 months. Bear are quicker also, I get them there before the deer rush and they are about 3 months. Also, they work 4 day weeks instead of working 5 day weeks and getting my product done quicker. I have a hard time believing they are not busier in the fall. They work 4 days a week so they can keep busy all year, this instead of working hard to get my hides back sooner. And you may have missed my point. I am part time, I dont stay busy year round, and I dont want to stay busy year round. Obviously, there are probably some tanneries that deal in large quantities from Africa, they probably stay busy year round, but some of the smaller ones dont get nearly the numbers from africa. Either way, home tan I can be done in 1 week.
     
  7. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    LOL Craig, you seem to be talking about those small "home tanneries" that Bob was addressing. That doesn't discount that ALL tanneries aren't busier in the fall hunting seasons, but again, many of us don't send hides to be tanned piecemeal. I wait until I have 15 or 20 before I ship them out and to me, it's inconsequential. They won't get worked on for 6 to 8 months and while they're gone, they're not taking up my freezer space or floor space.
     
  8. I bought one of Steve's Autotanners and I do 50-60 whitetail capes in it per year (part timer). The leather I get seems comparable to what I get back from a tannery (when I used to use one). Since Thanksgiving, I have tanned 18 capes and mounted 6 deer. I have total control over my hides. Do I enjoy fleshing and tanning - No! But the taxidermist has to flesh and turn the capes before they go off to the tannery any way. For me, the tanning and final shaving is not that much extra effort. I read all of the horror strories on here about lost capes, cut off noses, lots of holes, smelly capes, no stretch, etc. I guess I am one of those guys that would rather do it myself and not have to worry about all of that.

    Bruce
     
  9. craigjw

    craigjw http://www.back2lifetaxidermy.com

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    It hardly matters really, never had a tannery that was fast and good at the same time, maybe its because crappy tanneries dont get any work. Imagine that. Ill just keep sending my greasy bears to the good slow ones, they can deal with that, i will deal with the rest.
     
  10. "tell us some major tanneries that own them? love to talk to them and get some "major tannery" Feedback.....

    since your so knowledgeable in tanning expalin to me how it all works...not the chemicals cause i dont care what formula your using we are not gonna change our formulas...but more importantly explain to me how your "Autotanner" makes it so much better .... is it a pressure tanner or a vaccum tanner? whats the difference between a pressure tanner and a vacum tanner? how much does it cost? how can it revolutionize and industry thats dates back to before the pyramids were built? do you recomend salting the skins dry before they go into the "Auto tanner"? why? or why not?

    Heres your chance to really in detail explain why this is the next best thing since the fleshing wheel or is it more like the infamous "guttin stic"? Convince me, convince the rest of us we might all buy one and you can make a fortune. If its better faster cheaper we will rip out our stainless steel paddle vats and wet drums and put in your "AUTOTANNER"

    I really feel you have avoided answering what was asked.... i dont see a name of a major tannery in your reponse, i dont see answers to questions i posed...your giving me a sales pitch thats not what i asked for...to say its i am paraphasing here (packed in like a firecracker ) doesnt address my points and questions, Steve i am serious take the time please to explain each of my questions they are legitimate ....as for the statement

    "As far as if they work, or if they are a waste of money - why not ask a few of the thousands who have wasted their money on one."

    P.T. Barnum answered that a long time ago when he said "There is a sucker born every minute." Thousands and millions of people bought Ford Pintos, that didnt make them any better.

    As i stated at the begining of my response, this isnt intended as an attack on home tanners, i was answering some of the questions that were posed as well as some that werent raised in this thread but seem to come up time and time again on here, based on our experience and knowledge..... you then said i didnt know what i was talking about.... since you have the knowledge as someone who makes and sells them i am begging you to explain to me and the rest of us in detail how they "pack" it in there at the molecular level... feel free to use the laws of physics and chemistry to defend and explain; actually i am pleading with you to use the laws of physics and chemistry to do this since i belive in those as do most i suspect.

    I never see any of the major tanneries comming in here to ask for help answering a question about what they should or shouldnt do...or whats the next step... and yet every day we get the same questions over and over and over again from the home tanners about such and such product or what steps are next or why they cant get thier "autotanner" to work as well or as fast. look in the archives of this section i bet i could come up with 1000 examples of home tanners asking questions about the home tanning equipment and products that they have invested tons of hard earned dollars into...If its so simple fast and easy why are the people doing it having so many problems? maybe because it doesnt work as simply as its presented to be.

    I cant find even 1 major tannery asking a question about those topics ...why is that ? Because we know that the laws of physics and chemistry dont add up on these products and the "new and improved equipment" and process does'nt work as well as the products and equipment we already have, and so we didnt waste our money or time and we dont use them.

    I will say this about one person we do respect Bruce Ritell, he is the one person whom i know that has done it the right way, Bruce spent years trying to get his foot into the door of the tanneries to learn the process and he had a plan and a program to market his knowledge to the masses, and his products are based on good science from a chemical standpoint. You will notice there are relatively very few questions on here about his products compared to the others. There are some tanneries using his system and his chemistry to produce there final product. The difference being Bruce actually has a "tan", his process follows basically what the major tanneries are doing with some small variattions. In other words he isnt trying to selling us a "Ford Pinto".
     
  11. Kevin M.

    Kevin M. Active Member

    Hey Bruce, I've been telling people That by the time I have one read for the tannery. Fleshed ,turned, salted. I have it tanned.and ready to mount.But they just don't believe me !!

    And Sivko. I will start mounting deer. In Jan. Could I do that If I had to send them to you? And here are the directions off of Dan Rhinharts web site.
    This alum, salt, soda ash combination offers a complete pickle, tan and neutralization in one simple crystal. Only one pound of Tanning Crystals per whitetail cape is needed to completely tan a cape in 4 hours! This revolutionary crystal opens the hide to receive tanning chemicals (alum), saturates hide molecules and neutralizes (locks in) the hide – all in one. The secret of these crystals is the time proven tanning capabilities of Aluminum Sulfate combined with the neutralizing properties of the Soda Ash. The Aluminum Sulfate tans the hide and then the “time released” Soda Ash neutralizes the hide – capturing the tanning chemicals forever. No other single tanning product has ever made hide tanning more Complete and Easy! Pressure Tanning Procedure for BuckTan Crystals: •Remove major meat and fat. --Turn ears, lips, eyes and nose. •Place in tanner, mix 1 pound tanning crystal and 1 gallon of warm water per hide. •Pressurize tank to 50 psi and set timer for 1 hour – remove from tanner and “Final” flesh hide. •Add 1/3 cup of softening oil and 1 cap-full of Scour to tanning solution, re-pressurize tanner to 50 psi for 2nd time and set timer for 3 hours. •After 3 hours remove hide from tanner and quickly (2-4 minute) rinse in cold water/Dawn dish and spin-dry in washing machines or tumble hide in corn cob grit until clean.
     
  12. buckstop

    buckstop New Member

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    I'll answer that question for Sivko. As I said I got my first batch back from them last week. Great looking capes!
     
  13. Steve Rotramel

    Steve Rotramel We got some radical rebels in this county!

    Listen dude, what I'm giving you is a break.

    You're arguments are specious and you're ignoring my simple answer. I'm trying to avoid disrespecting you the way you've disrespected me. I've always respected Sivko - let's not change that - okay, you probably wouldn't like that any more than I do.
     
  14. Steve, once again you havent even attempted to answer the questions instead you resort to calling me in essance liar
    "specious"

    <Main Entry: spe·cious
    Pronunciation: \ˈspē-shəs\
    Function: adjective
    Etymology: Middle English, visually pleasing, from Latin speciosus beautiful, plausible, from species
    Date: 1513
    1 obsolete : showy
    2 : having deceptive attraction or allure
    3 : having a false look of truth or genuineness : sophistic <specious reasoning>

    — spe·cious·ly adverb

    — spe·cious·ness noun

    I am not trying to attack you personally, i am saying you havent shown where this "Autotanner" does anything in terms of physics or chemistry to make worthy of an investmant of a nickel. You on the other hand first accused us of having no experience, and now were apparently guilty of being in your words "specious". I am trying to use science the laws of chemistry and physics based on thousands of years of experience <since tanning dates back that far we do have records> to back up my claims....you have resorted to using the analogy of a "packed like firecaracker" as the entire basis of your argument for why its better..... that doesnt cut it, its "specious" at best. Here i am gonna give you a jump start on what kind of explaination i am looking for...

    How does your "autotanner" enhance or affect in any way what is written below?

    "When aluminum sulphate is dissolved in water, a small
    part of it splits up into a soluble basic salt and an equiva-
    lent amount of free acid. The reaction may be shown as
    follows : AL(SO 4 ) 3 + 2H 2 = A1 2 (S0 4 ) 2 (OH) 2 + H 2 S0 4
    aluminum water basic aluminum sulphuric sulphate sulphate acid

    When a skin is entered into such a solution, the free acid
    is absorbed, causing a swelling of the pelt. While this is
    taking place, a further quantity of the neutral aluminum
    salt splits up into more basic salt and free acid. At the
    same time the basic aluminum sulphate is also taken up
    by the skin, probably attaching itself to some of the acidic
    groups contained in the skin substance, in a manner analo-
    gous to the combination of the acid with the basic groups
    of the skin substance. A point is reached, however, when
    the skin is no longer able to take up more of the basic salt,
    for the presence of the acid undoubtedly acts as a deterrent.
    The skin, if dried after such a treatment contains a small
    amount of aluminum, which is insufficient to tan the pelt
    properly, and as a result this comes out in an undesirable
    and quite useless condition.

    <steve here is an important part below>

    If to the solution of the alumi-
    num sulphate salt is added, a different result is obtained.
    To a certain extent the salt acts here as in the pickle. The
    skin on absorbing the free acid of the solution naturally
    swells, but the salt reduces this swelling, and at the same
    time, by penetrating between the fibres and dehydrating
    them, produces a leather as in the pickle. In addition, the
    presence of the salt enables a greater amount of basic
    aluminum sulphate to be formed, and thus a greater quan-
    tity is taken up by the skin. On drying and stretching
    after such a treatment, a soft, flexible and stretchable
    leather is obtained. "

    *for a full record and refrence of this material go to:

    "Principles and practice of fur dressing and fur dyeing, written by WILLIAM E. AUSTIN"

    This is an excellent read for all the tanning chemistry people by the way and while we dont agree with all of his conculsions he is certainly doing a pretty good job.

    Now Steve, how would or could pressure or for that matter vaccum in a liquid not a gas, impact this process in any way?

    Bob
    sometimes called
    "Dude"
     
  15. Kevin M.

    Kevin M. Active Member

    But Sivko, How about the fact that it works !!!!! For 1000's of people. Sorry it eats into you business. But it works.
     
  16. Kevin, your missing the point but since you asked ...what i am saying/suggesting based on the laws of chemistry and physics, is the pressure does nothing to a liquid in terms of the tanning it niether helps nor hurts it is a ZERO factor in the equation; in other words its a gimmick. Therefore you would and could still be getting a tanned product out of it based on what chemicals your using.
     
  17. Kevin M.

    Kevin M. Active Member

    But it works in 4 hours. So be it the pressure. The rotation. What ever. It won't work in 4 hours in a bucket.
     
  18. Dennis,
    i really am not trying to call anyone stupid i truly belive the questions are asked in ernest and that people really do want to find out the differences and whats right or wrong and why...it may seem perfectly logical to me and others and still not make sense to another person...probably becuase we not able to effectively comunicate our position and reasoning...sincerely i want to understand from a chemical and law of physics perspective but it seems when i ask i get a sales pitch instead of scientific explanation. Bob
     
  19. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Bob, if only that were true. This industry is filled with individuals who could care less. How do you think products like Krowtann sell. They're marketed as "simple, one step, no bother with pH" processes. The same sales pitch that J.W. Elwood used on me in the 1950's with Calorax. Sure, SOME of us want to know, but more than most don't care as long as the results allow them to push it through the door.
     
  20. Rhino

    Rhino Too many irons in the fire will put the fire out!

    Between Kevin, and Steve, this WHOLE post, is starting to reek of flatulance!

    Packing chemicals? What the f is that? You do that, and the oil dont work, and you dont get any stretch?

    Steve, I can appreciate your attempt at sales, BUT you need to watch what you say on here, or you are going to get royally spanked!