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What makes in house tanning diff from a tannery?

Discussion in 'Tanning' started by rarestjewels, Dec 6, 2009.

  1. Kevin M.

    Kevin M. Active Member

    So then stop being an arrogant SOB toward me . And I may let it go. But just Like it's not in you. It's not in me . To back down from a good argument.
    And I was introduced to the Auto-Tanner at the school I went to . So I was familiar with it before I got it. So I would have got one even IF I had to pay for It. And when this one wears out I will get another. But I will have to pay for the next one.
  2. coonhollow

    coonhollow Active Member

    Congatulations, you spent $859 on something that the person selling them cant give a real answer to its credibility.

    Well, I'm not sure I can. There is always a point where where any physical process becomes magic. It makes sense to me though.

    It's interesting that the solar system-like pictures of molecules that we see are not at all accurate.

    The theory states that under pressure, more molecular collisions occur creating possible bonding situations. Is that because of increased molecular movement? Closer proximity? Combination of the two?
    what the answer to these 3 question marks?

    And the pressure doesn't force fluid into the skin. It cause more surface contact between the dissolved chemicals and the fibers of the skin, thus increasing their reaction rates.

    this whole thing probably evolved from the late nite infomercial on vacuum sealing meats for marinating!

  3. Kevin M.

    Kevin M. Active Member

    Thank you Coon, I really don't need any congratulations. Because I saw it work before I got it. But thank you anyway.

    Oh and the answer to your 3 questions is . It works !! It works!!! And It works!!! What else is needed ???
  4. michael p.

    michael p. Getting better with age :)

    An hour ago I made myself a soft taco consisting of bacon, muledeer pan sausage, 2 over hard eggs, cheddar cheese, sour cream and homemade picante sauce all on one oversized flour tortilla. If I fart i'm gonna have $hitrock instead of sheetrock.
  5. Steve, I am gonna have to break this one into parts its feeling a bit disjointed..

    "We know that all molecules are composed of a nucleus and a set number of electron orbits. The outer orbits are what make contact and bonds with other molecules. It's interesting that the solar system-like pictures of molecules that we see are not at all accurate. The fact is that if you had a simple atom blown up until the nucleus was the size of a tennis ball, the first electron orbit would be about 800 miles away, and the electron still would have no mass."

    wow now were going down from the molecular and celluar level to the atomic and sub atomic parts....but i am following you so far.

    "So everything solid is over 99.9999999999999 (keep going) per cent space."

    this bordering on quantum physics..carl sagen and stephen hawkings playground.....parralell universes and string therory.... i am with you to a point on this but its shakey.

    "The molecules themselves are loosely bonded and chemical reactions happen when they collide with each other. The theory states that under pressure, more molecular collisions occur creating possible bonding situations. Is that because of increased molecular movement? Closer proximity? Combination of the two?"

    ok back to the celluar and molecular level again i feel alittle more at home....

    i contend that it is hapening faster because you have drum rotation this agitation as i stated earlier is going to facilitate faster absobsotion, this is why paddle vats will tan faster than static vats.


    the same results could be accomplished by purchasing a washing machine with a stailess steel tub and running the skins on the gentle cycle

    were kinda into circular reasoning becuase as you stated earlier....

    "while it transfers pressure on a near 100% efficiency rate, it is not compressible as you know. Therefore, the overall effect of the pressure is partially nullified."

    and as i stated, if you apply pressure equally to a liquid that is "not compressible" and anything in the liquid it is not just partially nullified it is in fact completely nullified, equal pressure applied all over reults in stasis the only thing that can move in that enviorment is a gas and it could pressure a gas into the skin much the same way the ocean can affect a deep sea diver, gas <nitrogen> from the water, pushed through his skin <semi permeable membrane> into his blood stream and why they need to go into a decompression chamber after a dive to slowly remove the gas from the blood stream. the diver does not have to worry about solids being forced into the blood stream from the pressure of the ocean only the gas because only the gas in the water is of less density so it passes through the semi permeable mebrane.

    When were talking about tanning agents were not talking about a gas were talking about a mineral concentration in solution which will through osmosis find its equalibrium naturally.

    we are using ph to create that enviorment, when a skin goes from one ph level <solution> to another ph level <solution> the skin will seek to balance its ph through osmosis because the laws of nature demand it be neutral to its enviorment there by drawing in the tanning agents at the same time....back to the sponge for a second...think of a skin that is ph2.5 being a sponge that is being wrung out of its water...now introduce it to a tanning solution that is 3.0 the osmotic flow to balance the 2.5 and 3.0 will draw tanning agents into the skin because nature dictates that it become nuetral or balanced to its enviorment.....now at another step the same skin which has now become ph 3.0 is placed in a even more concentrated solution with a ph of say 4.0 again the natural osmosis will draw the skin to be nuetral in its enviorment and with it more tanning agent is introduced into the skin. It is agitation and circulation that help speed this along, drums rotating, paddle vats moving the skins, i would also think you could pump the solution over the skins constantly and also accelerate tanning over static tanning.

    It is the motion of the skin/drum/paddle/solution that helps to keep the concentration of disolved taning agents in solution so they dont preciptate out and seperate to the bottom....if you had a plastic drum and put a electric paint stirer into the drum to move the solution around it would tan faster than static tanning for the same reason.
  6. michael p.

    michael p. Getting better with age :)

    My butt feels like a pressure tanner after that taco
  7. Steve Rotramel

    Steve Rotramel We got some radical rebels in this county!

    mp that's nothing but mechanical agitation. You need to sit in a paddle vat for a while.
  8. Steve Rotramel

    Steve Rotramel We got some radical rebels in this county!

    Okayt Bob that's great information and makes perfect sense to me.

    I can tell you the process that occured to bring me to my conclusions. The condensed version is this - I tried tanning in a pressure tank. It was not motorized; it had a crank.

    I put the skin in with the tan mix and turned the crank a few times to stir it up. Left it for four hours and the result was phenomenal. I had no idea why from a molecular standpoint or how to explain the difference the pressure made, I just saw that it made a big difference over vat tanning.

    The machine evolved from there.

    Go back to where I talked about molecular movement under pressure. If I understand it correctly, pressure causes molecular movement to increase and exaggerate. Molecular collisions cause chemical reactions.

    Try this for an example. Pour baking soa into an acid. A chemical reaction takes place. If the components were mixed in a pressurized container, the reaction would happen faster. Okay?

    Ever taken analytical geometry? There is a point where no matter what it's impossible to picture what's happening in the formulas. You just have to trust the result. I am telling you I did real experiments with real skins and I saw a real difference. I'll probably never be able to explain to your satisfaction - but that's what happened.
  9. Monte

    Monte Missouri fur-Limited hair-tanning

    Steve, I see a big difference in my skins in an alum pickle at pH 3.5 after four hours. Static tan also and stirred a few times . The wet drum will make the same effect in about 1.5 hours.
    I am listening and still having a problem with the need for pressure. A shrink test at various stages and at different times will show you the increase in the degree of tannage. I shoot for a minimun of 170-180 and with a slight modification and can hit 200-212 and hold it for 5 minutes without shrinkage.
    This higher temp. is not needed for taxidermy tanning and/or mounting. The extra expence of getting it higher is not cost effective.
    The mechanical action of the auto tanner is a hugh benefit to the in house tanner. But , as Bob said any thing that gives you the action will produce comparative results
  10. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

    Probably many have never picked up on it, but over the years I’ve had a tendency to avoid threads in which specific individuals and products were involved. In the eyes of many, they would be considered my competition, and it would be in bad taste to say any thing negative, or point out the ingredients of their products.

    I had written a lengthy article when we were still in the old format. I tried Google’s index looking for it. Apparently it is history. I’m not even going to attempt to write it all out again.

    There are a couple of facts left out in this discussion that could provide food for thought, and areas of exploration for those that are into experimentation.

    Boyle’s Law tells you that gases under pressure heat up.

    Where would gases in an auto-tanner come from?

    From the skin in the auto-tanner when exposed to acids, OR any other compounds that can produce gas when reacted with the organic constituents of a skin.

    Then you are going to ask as to what the heat has to do with it. For one thing, it speeds up molecular activity. Another thing, which is probably the biggest factor, the collagen fibers that are contracted up like a zig-zag spring relax. This allows the interstaces between the collagen fibers to increase in size. In turn, this causes the skin to work about like a squeezed out sponge when exposed to liquid.

    Gases are produced naturally as part of decomposition. Would you be able to smell rot if gases were not produced?

    Different acids can produce greater or lesser amounts of gases when reacted with skin. The acid formulation I came up with produces a pretty good amount of gases, and in turn works quite well with the auto-tanner. STOP-ROT is another product that works with the auto-tanner. The almost instant color changes you see when you put STOP-ROT on the flesh side of a skin is caused by thousands of microscopic gas bubbles. The combination of my Leatherizing Acid formula and STOP-ROT have been known to produce almost freaky “stretch” with the auto-tanner. The stretch really isn’t stretch at all, but all those zig-zag fibers straightening out. It’s a temporary stage, the skin returns to it’s living proportions upon drying.

    If you want cheap, then my system isn’t for you. Stick with the crystals. Just because a mount improves with age may not be justification enough for an individual to go to a more expensive system. I know of no other system that can make that claim. If there is another one out there that improves with age, by all means, please inform me.
  11. cyclone

    cyclone Posts: 400001

    Boyle's Law, Molecular theories, orbitals, chemistry!!!

    Dang, something is rubbing off on these folks Glen..

    Great point, have you actually tried this? It would be worth while. My hypothesis would be:

    Since the reaction involves the production of a gas (carbon dioxide) increasing pressure would decrease the volume of the gas produced thus making it more difficult for the gas to be produced. I'd guess that the reaction would proceed more slowly than at standard temperature and pressure.

    It would be even more worth while (and easier) to try this reaction with varying temperatures. Try it with ice water and again try it with luke warm water. Which one would you expect to proceed more quickly?

    As a home bucket tanner, I can tell you that controlling temperature will have a much more profound affect on pickling and tanning than will pressure. Add agitation to the equation and I'd expect that one would pretty much leave the pressure tanners behind...
  12. lol
  13. Another simple experiment might be to use the same formula and try tanning 2 capes seperately, one with the tank pressurized and one with out the tank pressurized checking them every 2 hours ... maybe this has already been done
  14. Monte

    Monte Missouri fur-Limited hair-tanning

    Cyclone, I agree with you . The temperature is a hugh factor in our process. Since I don't use seperate acid pickle I always start by placing the hydrated skin in 80 degree alum pickle. If a hide shows any signs of spoilage , I will go with a higher tempature yet. The results are instant.

    Considering volume and cost in the equation and a determined product end quality , I don't see commercial tanners making any big changes.

    Glen, In the leather tanning business we call those fibres straighting out ----Let out. It increases square footage and thus income. If we take a 44 sq. ft. bison hide and get it to let out to say 48 sq ft. we just made 50 bucks on a hair on skin.

    Recent test I have completed with a fairly cheap material protected a piece of deer skin for three days at 70 degree F. with no signs of spoilage. I them alum tanned this piece as normal. It was excellent. I will test it for longer periods when I get time. I am just having fun playing with this.
    No No No I am not going to attempt to market it to taxidermist.
  15. Monte

    Monte Missouri fur-Limited hair-tanning

    Bob , I have considered taking a stainless steel pressure cooker and strapping it to the inside of a Small concrete mixer so the skins would flip flop end to end without requiring baffles , you would have to install an air valve. Then shrink testing every 1/2 hour to see the real difference if any. Since I can pickle in 1.5 hours anyway I see no reason to take time to do it. As I have said before faster is not better. So what difference does it make how long it takes. It could take 10 hours and the auto tanner can process more than the shop can mount. With the timer you could do two batches in 24 hours.
  16. Steve Rotramel

    Steve Rotramel We got some radical rebels in this county!

    *****WARNING****** Shameless commercial presentation from the provisional arm of the Rotramel family ahead.

    I always recommend 104 to 110 degrees. That's what my chemist told me. LOL

    I'm thrilled to see you guys have such confidence in an agitating tumbler since that's my newest product. I will believe in the pressure tanner till the day I die, but a pressure machine this size runs into boiler laws which put the cost of a raw tank at well over $1000.

    This new machine doubles as a tumbler, which we were not able to do with the pressure tanks. Variable speed, forward and reverse, and a timer control.

    Glen, I've never tried your system but it sounds real interesting. I'll be giving you a call about it.

    Attached Files:

  17. Steve Rotramel

    Steve Rotramel We got some radical rebels in this county!

    Okay you guys, riddle me this -

    I have a standing policy. Once borax touches the hide, I don't try to tan them.

    I recently had a person explain to me (if I remember right he had a PhD in microbiology) how wrong I was about this. He quoted chapter and verse about quantities and flow rates and neutralizations and moles of weak acids.

    All I could say was that every single time I tried to tan a skin that had been contacted by borax the hair jumped out.

    So here is the question. How much impact does the manifest evidence of experience in the processes being questioned have on your theoretical understanding of what should happen?

    And when you have an unexpected result, don't you just conclude that there are unfamiliar factors turning what you expected should happen into what actually does happen?

    It kind of cracks me up that you sit there without ever having done ANY of it telling me that my 13 years of experience working with pressue tanning is just an illusion. I have chemists too! They agreed that the pressure impacts the process! One told of his experience in college investigating the very same question of pressure impact on tanning. He works for a laboratory in Tennessee and spent several days with me on a couple different occasions.

    So what do you believe more - your theory or your eyes?
  18. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    So you're saying he may know chemistry but doesn't know squat about tanning? LMAO

    I don't tan or even try to tan boraxed skin because of similar issues with pH. Perhaps I COULD have fixed it, but your "rule of thumb" is like mine and I'd rather err on the side of safety. Probably just me.
  19. well in the case of birds and small mammals...borax does enough of a preservative job in itself since the animals skin is so thin...its the thicker skinned animals would need to be tanned...AND didn't i just SEE you George, say that you don't try to tan a boraxed skin due to the Ph balance....which gives credibility to my belief that animals have a higher/lower ph balance in their skins BEFORE they go into tans...

    My theory was that carnivores have a higher ph balance in their skins due to their diets against herbivores...hence the higher risks of slippage DESPITE the tanning formula (ie...foxes, etc)

    But you and [email protected] shot me down in flames over that theory and yet here you are making an adverse statement directly related to that theory...

    Borax is a neutralizer/stablizer for thin skins like salt is...it helps "cure" the hide and adhere the hair to it...
  20. bill@hogheaven

    [email protected] New Member

    You take this one George....Im just not up to unraveling that insanity today.