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Annual DNR check (2 1/2 hours)

Discussion in 'Bird Taxidermy' started by trophy, Mar 2, 2007.

  1. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Cecil, maybe you should read the Showers case as well. You know, here's a guy who endured the heavy handedness, took it to federal court, won overwhelmingly, and you guys choose to run scared. Mike told them they could not look without a warrant. They simply ignored him and threatened to arrest him if he resisted. The took "evidence" against his spoken desires. You know, most of you guys one here act so tough to one another and talk crap like you invented it, but now when a game warden shows up you get weak in the knees. So much for the tough guys. The NRA was right in their comparison to these guys as "jack booted thugs" and we ALL know what happened to a civilization of people who really didn't act much differently that some of you are advocating.

    Cecil, I'd expect better out of you on constitutional law matters. You do understand, of course, that you cannot be forced into signing away your Constitutional rights by any state run group, don't you? Only taxidermists.
    crs likes this.
  2. JonHarleTX

    JonHarleTX Ya'll hear that. George just signed in. Quick Hide

    and where do I find this SHower's Vs Spangler case that everyone is talking about?


  3. http://pgchallofshame.com/stories/page8.htm

    HOLMES Active Member

    I just moved to Arkansas from Missouri. In Missouri I had to buy a licence and sign it. Where you sign it said that I agree to these terms and may be inspected at any reasonable time, not searched. Very fine line there and I don't really know where the line is. In Arkansas no license so I think I have more rights. If you don't sign in Mo you are violating laws if you do they can inspect at any reasonable time. I don't think I would give a game warden a hard time when they show. I have also thought about the video thing. I bet if you had a recording device in your business and they knew it things would go alot smoother to those that have had trouble, they would at least cover there bases giving you more responsibility to what you give them. I have never had one bit of trouble myself and have allways got along well with them luckily, get along with them best you can is my advise. Get involved with things they are involved in. Go to there meetings and you will more than likely get some work from them, maybe alot of things you would not normally get. This has worked for me and I think its politics, (of course)
  5. THANK YOU :p
  6. Cecil

    Cecil Well-Known Member

    George I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying is it worth the grief they will give you and your family? If everything is in order (which I think it is in my shop) why not just let them in and be over with it for a year? I guess I'm getting old. Anymore I go with the flow. It's less stressful.
  7. trophy

    trophy New Member

    I did not have time to read the whole case but I caught a part that said in his area they have the right to inspect his books. Did not say anything about the premisis. My log book specificly says they can "inspect " the premisis. Iam with you with the fact that theres a difference between a inspection and a warrant. Just wondering does your (George&Paul ) log books or paper work ever mention the inspection of premises anywhere? Thanks Xx Trophy xX for making it easy to find the Showers case. I will make a copy and read it through ltr.
  8. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Trophy, my license and books state just what yours does. What that summary judgement says is that regardless of what the license says, you don't reliquish your constitutional rights. A warden certain CAN inspect our freezers, but he has an obligation to obtain a warrant. Just like you doing your job keeping the records books, HE has a job to do and is bound by law in how it happens. It's really quite simple. Both us and the wardens are playing a game and there are rules to the game. Neither party is exempt from the rules. I have never had a problem and Id on't expect to, HOWEVER, I know what the law requires. Just on principle, if need be, I'll get arrested. I'm thankful Mike Showers laid the groundwork for me and all of you who agree with the "home castle" rule.
  9. Paul C

    Paul C New Member

    I've pretty much explained this one to death, not only on this particular thread but on several others over the past several years and I am officially done after this.
    Bryan and others, listen carefully to what I am saying here. The wording in your state with regard to taxidermy regulations is NO DIFFERENT than in any other state. EVERY state attends the National Law Enforcement Conference I talked about earlier. Every state has worded the taxidermy regs in basically the same way. ALL are intentionally vague. The problem lies in the fact that each state is free to make its own interpretation of that law. Depending on how influential the State's Attorney is, the state can adhere to the Showers decision rigidly, partly, or ignore it altogether--waiting, like I said before, for someone to challenge the law in court. Most Game and Fish Laws are exactly like this. Did you know that nearly 90% of the Game Law violations every year in the US would be overturned if the cases ever went to court? They would be overturned for things like "improper procedure", "illegal search and seizure" and various other Civil Rights violations. Ever wonder why the penalities are so low for game law violations? Because the states know full well they are pushing it with almost every case they get---if the fine is less than the cost of fighting it most people just opt to "go with it" and pay the fine--generating important revenue for state Fish and Game Departments.
    How do I know all this? I worked for the PA Game Commission for 12 years as a Taxidermy Examiner. In that time I worked directly with the Bureau of Law Enforcement trying to improve the 80 year old taxidermy regulations and laws in PA. After the Showers decision and subsequent law suit the PGC decided to change a lot of its policies in Law Enforcement. Someone had finally called their bluff and a Federal Court told them that they had no more power than a State Trooper and the laws against warrantless searches and illegal seizures actually DID apply to them. I worked directly with the Special Investigations Chief in the Taxidermy Exam twice a year. I was very fortunate to be privy to a lot of information that I shouldn't have---things like I've mentioned above. He is the one that told me about the Conference and other State's poilicies and he also told me that PA had advised EVERYONE of the Showers decision--unfortunately, not all the states heeded PA's advice.

    You will NEVER get a state to admit to anything I've told you here. Calling and asking them like you guys did is silly. George tried to explain it with a clever analogy but I don't think anyone got it. Try this analogy:
    You are driving down the Interstate at 65 MPH. A trooper pulls you over and says he clocked you at 90 and is writing you up. You answer with, "Are you sure?". Do you really think he is going to say, "Well, no I'm not sure but I'm going to write you a ticket anyway."????? He is going to stand by his initial statement "come Hell or high water" knowing FULL WELL that you will back down because its easier than fighting it.
    You can apply the same analogy to the high school bully in the playground. Every day the same thug shakes you down for your lunch money and thanks you with a punch in the gut. The more you allow it the more he does. Soon he is taking your wallet, coat, watch etc. If you ask the bully if he is allowed to do that he will say, "I sure as hell can!".
    How long are you going to just "go along" with things before you stand up and say "ENOUGH"!!!
    George likes this.
  10. Jason Fessenden

    Jason Fessenden My Little Princess

    It is spelled allowed
  11. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    xX we don't have much doubt about your ability to understand the written word since you can't spell them. The word is "allowed" but since you've been "aloud" we have no doubt you can't comprehend IT'S NOT ALLOWED WITHOUT A WARRANT.
  12. trophy

    trophy New Member

    xXtrophy xX Is a 14 year old that found some info that I thought was interesting. I would not get on someone for there spelling I think its interesting he cares at a young age. You guys would go on for ever throwing stones to make your point and if I could hear you instead of reading your messages Iam sure your tone would win as well. George you have not been helpfull just loud. Your negative ways would never encourage no one to want to even post. Iam sorry I even posted this , and thanks Paul I will look further into this and hopefully can handle my inspections better next time. Also George if you are this way with your customers Iam sure you have trouble sleeping at night. Iam done, you made this expeirence wonderful! Make sure if I spelled anything wrong you correct me. Cause I might not understand
  13. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Trophy, the facts of life are :"Stupid should hurt". Now if the kid is only 14,, then I'd assume that he's at least in the 9th grade of school (if not, that's speaks for itself). A 14 year old with a gun can kill you. A 14 year old drunk is a menace to society. A 14 year old who argues from a position of ignorance isn't very smart when dealing with adults who've spent the major part of their lives in a profession he has difficulty spelling. So if you want to feel boorish behaviour is excusable "for the children", that's fine with me until you try to paint me with that tired ass brush telling me how my comments discourage our "impressionalble young people just starting". You should have heard some of the comments us old guys heard when we began.

    As for my customers, I keep more than I can do and contract out and I treat them as they treat me. If they come in here acting all indignant, I invite them to find a taxidermist who puts up with such crap. Most people who come into my shop come because I have a reputation of not sugar coating things and not stealing money from them in return for work that should never have been done to begin with. You came on here, made a statement about your lament, you were told how you could have prevented it and set an example that would have helped others in your area from wasting time on unnecessary bureaucratic BS, but instead, you end up protecting a kid looking for natural selection.
  14. SteveP

    SteveP New Member

    George and Paul, I very much appreciate what you've done on this thread. You may not have delivered the message to a couple people, but I hope I'm not the only one that "got it". Last night I searched for, found, and started to read the Showers vs Spangler ruling. It's long and difficult to translate some of it, but I finished reading it this morning. I just reread the MN state rules, and I believe MN paid attention to the ruling because they state "...records must be available at all times by the Commissioner or his agent..." while never mentioning the premises or searches of any kind. I found it interesting how blatant the federal court found the difference between inspections and searches. No tranlation to layman terms were neccassary. A search can only be conducted as part of a criminal investigation and with a warrant. They did not list the exceptions, except owners' consent, but did mention them as being "a few well recognized exceptions" (probable cause, etc.). I believe any attorney would love to take the case where you denied a "search" based on your rights as a United States citizen and that was their "probable cause".

    I'm afraid that many of these people that refuse to stand up for their/our rights would just as soon fight a middle east war on our soil. Their logic is the same as the rape victim that won't testify, for fear of the rapist threating revenge, just so the rapist can seek another victim. Victims are victims and violators are violators.
  15. I'm finished too... notice i put too not to not two but too... and by the way i love you too George! :) ..... Oh and by the way i do not have difficulty spelling i was in a hurry. Matter of fact George when your where my age i am probably smarter then you where...I'm in all g.t class (gifted and talented) and i just got accepted into two (not too) different magnet schools and i have also made honor roll ever quarter since 6th grade so yeah.
  16. Mike108

    Mike108 Guest

    Hey Trophy don't be sorry you started the thread, I found it to be educational to a certain degree. I'm in PA myself and found Paul's info very helpful as well as George's. I hope everything works out with your inspection. Good luck..My freezers are closed without a warrant.
  17. BeckyBird

    BeckyBird My Baby Bluebirds

    I have a question......If my shop is being inspected, and the warden only has the right to see my log book, can he ask to see every bird in the log book? I can imagine that he would get annoyed when I say that he doesn't have the right to dig through my freezers, and snoop in my work room, so in turn, I can just see him causing trouble. Does he have the authority to ask me to show him every single bird in the book?

    I know some other taxidermists who have had their freezers inspected (searched!). Even though I have nothing to hide, I still don't want to be intimidated into showing some strange guy everything I have in my household fridge!! I will (politely) stand up for my rights, thanks to the advice from all of you!
  18. The people who allow the "inspections" are the same people who will give up their guns when bubba law comes knocking.
    George likes this.
  19. Paul C

    Paul C New Member

    Becky, theoretically the warden "could" ask to see every bird in your log book. However, he would walking a very fine line. He would have to know that his only reason for asking to see actual birds in your freezer would be to see that they are properly tagged. He could determine that by checking random birds throughout your book. I'm sure that just about ANY judge would find that asking to see EVERY bird in your possession would cross the line between an inspection and a search. I also think you could make a good case for harassment given the amount of time it would take you to produce each and every bird.
    Just be polite and let him know that YOU know the law and will be happy to comply with it as long as HE doesn't cross the line.

    And if you do get an inspection that seems to be going a little too far don't EVER be afraid to pick up the phone and call for assistance. A friend with a video camera or, better still, a friend who is an attorney with a video camera will so wonders for the warden's demeanor.
  20. coues_deer

    coues_deer New Member

    Paul - Thank you for sticking to your guns and trying to help fellow taxidermists on this issue. I fully understand your passion on this issue. Most "taxidermists" have no idea how to run a business or what their rights are. Not until they get run thru the Federal court system will they understand what you are talking about. At that point the path of least resistance now becomes "Guilty until proven innocent!" and comes with a very high price tag financially. Most of our "Rabbit cops" don't have the guts to go after the poachers etc. so they come to us to fill their quota's. We are easy to find, have open business hours and willingly allow them to destroy our shops. But I guess thats OK to some.