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Skin mounts & the C & R philosophy

Discussion in 'Fish Taxidermy' started by dougp, Sep 9, 2010.

  1. Jeff Lumsden

    Jeff Lumsden Well-Known Member

    "Bill point is that fish die and you do more harm by releasing" The Neanderthal fisherman is off the water with his legal fish. Seeing how C$R is such an epidemic with 99.9 % of average fishermen as you claim, and with their moralities of 40-50% ( Johnny claim) you crunch the numbers.

    "If you get a dead fish in the door make a mold. Its only going to help you down the road the writing is on the wall." What writing on the wall? What is the problem if the fishery is as you say "The #1 reason Muskies are what they are today and attracting huge numbers of fisherman is directly proportional to the huge number of anglers releasing them."

    We have to be accountable for every impact we have on our resources they are not infinite. Accountable beyond that which the tax payer DNR recommends for managing a fishery? Do you hold yourself accountable for the masses with high 40-50% moralities while you preach C$R to them? You are all over the place, which is it? Is the musky fishery in great shape or is the writing on the wall?

    "Is promoting the killing of fish as being better for the fishery a problem?" Not if it's legal, absolutely not. If you have a problem with with your state's Department of Wild Life regulations take it up with them, they're the experts, right?

    Thanks for acknowledging my free will and right to obey the laws and participate with state fishing regulations that are published annually for our use.

    Get a life,

  2. dougp

    dougp Active Member

    Well, here's the deal.

    Johnny Dadson and dcmusky came on here with their smart remarks and when confronted and asked to answer specific question about their claims they couldn'rt carry the water.

    So, enters muskiefool, who is aptly named and is the "enforcer" on some of the musky sites.

    He and some of his bud's have no regard for fair and honest discussion and find humor in name calling and demeaning a person because of a personal opinion.

    We "got here" as muskiefool says, because I chose to participate on a musky board, "The Next Bite" specifically. The thread is still there as I posted earlier if you want to check. It's kinda jumbled I think it's posted in reverse. He says I was "crapping in his house".....his house!

    So if you choose to participate in a discussion on a musky board, make sure you don't upset the "owners of the house" :D

    Anyway, some of these guys just don't want anyone questioning their radical ideas. It's obvious their goal is to stifle freedom of speech and legal participation in a sport if it doesn't follow their mindset.

    They are woefully ignorant of the process of mold making and taxidermy yet feel righteous enough to expound on the way we should run our business.

    '...fool says "Thats fine just dont expect to have the same volume of business from Muskie anglers especially when you have slapped 99.9% of us in the face."

    I'm sorry, I believe 99.9% of the musky fishermen understand my and our points very well. I don't believe they feel 'slapped" at all. They understand the need for "management" and not "worship" in the handling of our fisheries.

    It's the .10% like you and your cronies that take such vocal offense because these questions and comments shed light on your zealotry and your need to hold power over the small amount of "followers" that you have.

    My customers come to me because of what I offer in the realm of fish taxidermy, not because of my "political views" on C&R.

    If you and your friends choose to boycott and demonize me and others, that's fine, we'll be in good company with the many other businesses that groups like yours have tried to "bully".

    Taxidermist's are pretty independent thinkers and creative AND resilient. Most of us don't respond well to childish name calling and veiled threats.

    I, and I think most taxi's on here, are interested in discussing facts and not engaging in emotional diatribes by fringe kooks.

    You've been asked questions by taxi's on here that you and your friends have ignored.

    Answer the questions...........

    I have listed quotes here from prominent biologist's and guides and magazine editors to support my position that have been ignored......how about addressing some some of those.

    It's my understanding that you and dcmusky are members/officers in chapters of Muskies Inc. in MN. Should that be true, I would think your membership might want someone who actually promotes the values that MI claims to have and not be such a devisive factor in the fishing community. Maybe not.

    You say "you release all muskies, is that a problem?" Of course not. No one has challenged that. However, because you release all doesn't mean you don't kill any.

    Even Marc Thorpe, who is a very respected Canadian guide, acknowledges an 8% post mortality on C&R muskies. That's an average.......I go with 5-10%.

    There is a guide fishing the Green Bay area of Wi. who claims to put 200 muskies a year in his boat. He also makes a big deal out of being 100% C&R as if that takes him "off the hook", so to speak. Those numbers only mean he probably kills, injures or maims 10-20 muskies per year. Maybe more. Fine, I don't care. I DO care if he or you then gets in my face, or another fishermans face, about keeping a LEGAL fish to do whatever he or she or ME wants....... ;D


  3. WNWA

    WNWA New Member

    hey doug, you said a mouth full but oh so true....bullies will be bullies till they die...
    till then they will continue spread there beliefs and lies but when their time comes
    that big old muskie god cant help them.....
  4. EA

    EA Well-Known Member

    I didn't read all 10 pages , just spot checked through-out. Both C&R and Keep&Eat have there place. I think we all have seen the lakes with nothing but 14in. Fish.They are overcrowded , starving for food and space.They are stunted and need thinned out.

    I think C&R is an important tool used to get the most out of the resource..If you want some to eat or to put on the wall ,Go For It. I have 5 on my wall. I'm Totally for it. Nothing wrong about keeping your limit.

    For Tournament situations ,keeping the fish will obviously not work.If we are to keep enjoying these activity's then they must be released.On Pymatuning lake on the PA/Ohio border there is a tournament every weekend from April to June. There is no closed season for Bass on this lake ,so when other lakes are closed everyone fishes there for 3 months..Sometimes 2-3 tournaments going on at the same day..Curiously ,Pymatuning is also one of the Best Bass Fisheries in the 2 States.. How can this be ? Catch and release doesn't hurt and in this case may actually help..These tournaments are going on during the spawn ,so how can the fishing keep getting better ? Some of us think it is because we collect the fish and release them all together. Now finding a suitable partner is made much easier..We are the Matchmakers of fishing I tell ya'.

    Below is a table showing the catch results of a recent tournament.It's easy to see if these fish were kept ,X -2 tournaments a weekend for 12 weeks the lake would be a dead zone.

    Location Fish Short Dead SMB LMB Spot Wt AvgWt LiveRelease % Limits

    Pymatuning 360 5 5 36 324 0 700.78 1.95 98.6 39
  5. hodx

    hodx Herman Darr

    muskyfool...i have never been asked to do a repo fish ever...all the fish i mounted were real or skin mounts...no matter what size....if a person wishes to keep a fish, its none of your business or anybody else's...its all the same with bass,musky and some trout....if you want to release them fine, it i want to keep them, fine too...in my state muskies,pike are so-so fish...while Bass and giant bluecats are top C&R fish...but for me its "Catch-Kill-Eat-Mount
  6. This is what I think.

  7. dougp

    dougp Active Member

    LOL!! :D :D :D

    Randy, I'm with YOU!! ;D


    Attached Files:

  8. LOL Doug that is funny, we could almost be tiwns. Ok everyone lets put on a skin show.

  9. [​IMG]
  10. [​IMG]
  11. WNWA

    WNWA New Member

    great looking muskie skins, doug and randy....i think after muskie guides
    talk the poor saps in releasing their fish they go back and get them for
    there self, so they end up with money, repo.they painted and the fish
    they were talked in releasing, you mite say, they got it all......
  12. Jeff Lumsden

    Jeff Lumsden Well-Known Member

    Very cool Randy, those pictures light a fire in my soul.

    Doug, from the looks of things, looks like you droped a grenade in there nest, Kudos!

  13. I even skin mounted a fish today, just to see if I remembered how!

    Attached Files:

  14. muskiefool

    muskiefool New Member

    He said his name Buffalo Bill and he danced a jig, worn out shoe.
  15. dougp

    dougp Active Member

    Way to go Kevin....looks good!!

    Not sure WHAT that was above...................

    Here's something that may make a little more sense.

    A quote from Doug Stange, editor of IN-FISHERMAN magazine in an article titled "Limiting Catch and Release Catches" ;

    "Release fishing seems an unselfish act of angler restraint intended to sustain good fishing and be in tune with sound fisheries management.

    But on the other hand, catch and release may be only a handy excuse, a justification for UNLIMITED fish capture for practice, pleasure, profit, publicity or ego satisfaction, or any combination thereof."

    Kinda makes the point very well, I think, very clear, very precise. No need for translation.

    I think it's very telling that the musky guys that have posted on here have come to the table with an empty plate. They have not addressed any questions posed about these issues.

    I wonder why..... ;) :D ;D


    Attached Files:

  16. dougp

    dougp Active Member

    Just one more quote from Doug Stange..............IN-Fisherman magazine editor.

    " Catch and release anglers may be more lethal than fisherman who keep their limits and then quit fishing."

    This will be claimed to not apply to those with black belts [ ???] in fishing or those have who have artistic surgical releases.

  17. dougp

    dougp Active Member

    To be clear.........I support the practice of C&R.

    If you catch a legal fish and you're not going to eat it or mount it, then carefully release the fish.


    C&R does not mean "no kill".

  18. WNWA

    WNWA New Member

    2x on that doug, support the practice of c&r

    if you hunt or fish legally and you dont plan to eat it, mount it,with hunting dont kill it and
    with fishing carefully release it.
  19. silversides

    silversides New Member

    So it's clear you support catch and release for some of your catches, and practice your right to kill whenever you have the chance with a nice fish. And that is to make sure you will get pleasure out of that particular fish longer than anyone might if it were released.

    So what is the difference, in your opinion, between having a quality picture on the wall or having the identical skin that you caught there? You relive the story in your head. The fish on the wall tells no more of the story than the fish in a picture. What it does do though, is remove a piece of ecosystem that plays a role. So you remove it, and it leaves a void that can be filled by another fish. But where this argument began tells the rest of that story.....

    Lets jump back in time.... to musky hunter... where a big fish was caught and killed by an angler. He posted the picture online and many people responded...some positive, some negative, some mixed, but everyone agreed on it being a quality fish. The fish was stated to have been from Mille Lacs. A large lake with a population of muskies solely based on natural reproduction now. A guide, not JD, made a comment about the fishing being poor on Mille Lacs because people from out of state keeping the 50"ers they catch. Not once was there a shot taken at a taxidermist, taxidermy, dougP, etc. The guide said, "how hard would it be to take a measurement and get a replica?" Obviously this is a statement that struck a nerve in DougP's brain, because immediately he responded by calling out said guide. "Guides can be more harmful to a fishery than a casual angler, who may keep one fish per year, on a boat by boat basis." So one skewed fact by a guide and a clever, pot-stirring response by one of your own is what started this whole thing.

    Now, where DougP came up with the statement about "guides causing more harm to a fishery than a regular angler" has never been documented...anywhere. Cause the fact is....it's made up. It can be true, it can not, pigs could fly then they couldn't blah blah blah. The truth is, in reality, there are far more recreational anglers than professional guides. It's not even a comparison. Like saying there are just as many Kodak shops as there are taxidermists. Completely untrue. Reality is, it's a niche market for musky taxidermy, just like muskie fishing is the same for overall recreational fishing. And musky guides? Far fewer than bass or walleye for sure. So what spurred DougP to get onto a musky forum where he knew his response would be bashed and respond by calling out this small minority? Who knows? Only one person can answer that.

    Let me provide a few ideas on things I believe some of you don't understand about catch and release fishing. Areas that are supported by natural reproduction have a lower density of muskies per acre. That is a place where a musky can achieve an age of over 20 years!! Any of you have kids that were born in the last 20 years?? I'm sure you have lots of memories of them growing up etc., it's a long period of time where you must adapt to changes. Repeat catches have been documented on these waters over time, and the muskies can be recognized by their distinct markings. So it's obvious that catch and release has worked to an extent, much more than if we threw everyone of them up on the bank or ate them. In turn, these places have remained fisheries, places you can go to target these fish that have grown big over time. Other places have benefited by state fish commissions stocking musky fingerlings and creating fishable populations. Some people fail to equate the cost of the raising and stocking these fish is essentially the reason you must pay for a fishing license. And it's not just muskies, most fish species are being stocked to some degree. This is a resource that is being paid for by the angler. Some of you save your empties and take them back to get .05 cents refund. I see catch and release fishing as the same concept. I have more to gain by releasing these fish back again so they can sustain a fishable population. Throw away a case of empties and you're out a few bucks. Keep a few muskies and you're out a few fish that could help keep the population fishable. This is the day and age of people helping the environment.

    DougP has tried to make people who want to sustain a fishable population of muskies look bad. We all understand there is angler mortality, it's not some hidden statistic somewhere. As a kid I'm sure a few bluegills didn't make it from swallowing the hook and cutting the line. It's an aspect of fishing. As an adult, every year there's a few muskies that are slow to swim away. It's bound to happen. There's plenty of wildlife out there to enjoy that old dead fish far more than I ever would. The pleasure comes from luring it in and catching it. Not looking at it on the wall or dusting it. It's something that seperates the people who try it from the people who do it. And it's something that seperates the people that pay for $500 worth of tools to properly release the fish so they don't get stuck with a $500 taxidermy bill. We as musky fisherman/lure builders make our money off of the same resource you do..... not the fish... THE FISHERMEN. So again Doug, what would make you go in front of some potential business and cause such a stir? More attention?? well you got it. It just so happens most of it from the angling community has been negative.
  20. dougp

    dougp Active Member

    Welcome to the discussion silversides, whoever you may be.

    Your first sentence is pretty much on target. Yes, that is my position.

    BTW, if you want to "jump back in time" as you say to explain how we got here, you have to back much farther than your example.

    It seems that you haven't read all of what was posted here either. There's a lot so I'll assume you just missed some of it. Although I believe it was "missed" on purpose.

    The statement about "guides causing more harm to a fishery than a regular angler" is extrapilated from the article by Doug Stange. If you missed it it's in my post, gee, just before yours.

    I happen to believe he's right....what do you think? ;)

    Your quote; "DougP has tried to make people who want to sustain a fishable population of muskies look bad." Not so, I expect to be able to discuss what may be a different point of view on C&R on......of all things , a Musky discussion board.. !! ;D

    Silly me ::) If that makes some people look bad, well.....gee, let's DISCUSS IT!!

    I do agree with you in that angler mortality [re; delayed mortality] is "not some hidden statistic somewhere", as you say. Which is exactly to the POINT I was making..!!

    Some of the musky ELITE refuse to take responsibility for the fish they KILL through delayed mortality. It is much more than a "few fish that are slow to swim away", as you claim. LOL!!

    My sources; have been listed here and are too many to revisit...read the whole thread. If those aren't enough....I've got plenty more.

    Here's a classic quote of yours; "So again Doug, what would make you go in front of some potential business and cause such a stir? More attention?? well you got it. It just so happens most of it from the angling community has been negative."

    What would make me go on a musky board and try to discuss musky mortality you ask. Are you serious, ::) It's a DISCUSSION board.....Or maybe as muskiefool claims, it's "your house."
    You say most or the attention from the angling community has been negative.......I think not. It may very undesireable for your particular group of radical anglers

    You say; "There's plenty of wildlife out there to enjoy that old dead fish far more than I ever would. The pleasure comes from luring it in and catching it. Not looking at it on the wall or dusting it." Well, there is
    another example of an elitist radical, trying to tell us just how we should enjoy the angling experience. That may be fine for you....I'll decide for myself where the "pleasure comes from",as will my customers and friends who understand the difference between "Fish Management" and "Fish Worship."

    Attention...yes, I wish some of you would pay attention, so far it ain't happenin'.

    Most of the anglers I speak with and hear from, have no problem grasping the concepts from my last post.

    I'm sorry they're too difficult for some of you.

    BTW, everybody knows who I am, why don't you tell us who YOU are?