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Skin mounts & the C & R philosophy

Discussion in 'Fish Taxidermy' started by dougp, Sep 9, 2010.

  1. dougp

    dougp Active Member

    OK...siversides, I know there's a lot comin' at you here.

    I've tried to answer your questions and charges, actually, quite well I think ;D

    Answer me this.......I mentioned a guide who claims to put over 200 muskies a year in HIS boat in one year of fishing Green Bay.

    If I go to Green bay and catch and kill a legal musky this fall ....am I more of an individual threat to the Green Bay fishery......or is he?

    ??? ??? ??? ???

  2. Tyler M

    Tyler M New Member

    And DOWN! It's over, It's all over!!

    Attached Files:

  3. silversides

    silversides New Member

    I'm sorry doug, I've obviously wasted both of our time here by failing to see you're entire argument is based off of a single Doug Stange article...i never realized you were so uninformed. 1 fish for you, 1 fish for you brother, your cousin, your uncle, etc and then every other joe blow out there and the numbers are alot different than you perceive. Read a little more and hang around the musky boards and i'm sure you'll be educated just enough to get a job when the world of skinsports dries up
  4. franchi612

    franchi612 New Member


    Are you and people like you saying then that fisheries biologists are in the wrong by allowing harvest? And if so what do you base that on? IOW, I would like to see actual research studies by fisheries biologists supporting your theories. Otherwise, I'm sorry but I have to trust that fisheries biologists have by far more intrinsic knowledge of moratality, reproduction, and catch efforts. Or is there some other nefarious reason that fisheries biologists allow harvest? I know I can give you one reason. So that dead fish are not left in the water. Realistically if the season is closed, the fish must be released as it would be illegal to keep whether it is dead or alive. Is this what you want, no muskie harvest, and seeing dead fish left to float? If you were successful in passing c&r only fishing for muskies, then how will you justify the act of physically harming the fish by jabbing sharp hooks in its mouth to animal rightists? Just looking for simple answers. I'm sick of the anthropormorphic attitude that muskies are some near human or god like creature to be revered. I'm really just looking for a factual basis on which you found your beleifs.
  5. dougp

    dougp Active Member

    Silverides...don't be sorry ;D.... you may be wasting YOUR time 'cause there's an awful lot that "you've failed to see."


    BTW...I've spent plenty of time on the musky boards....that's HOW we got here remember... ::)

    franchi612...I'm with you but don't hold your breathe........BTW, there is also evidence to show that a musky fishery can be harmed and go into decline even though that fishery has been a 100% C&R fishery for decades.

    Hhhhhmmmm....HOW could that be.... ??? ??? ;D :p

  6. These people and their striped pike.
  7. Hey Tyler I see you have been following this BS too. I've been reading along at this crap for a while but since I stay out of all the drama on here from now own I've not commented. I'm with the rest of the gang... CATCH then either....MOUNT, EAT or RELEASE. Pretty simple to me. I really can't beleive the people taking shots at high class people like Doug P and Jeff Lumsden. WTF???????? But then again some people just like to live negative and listen to themselves B!TCH!!! Doug you know your the musky man and you don't have to listen this crap man.
  8. dougp

    dougp Active Member

    Thanks Travis ;D

    Thanks Tyler...Ali was my guy! ;)

  9. dcmusky

    dcmusky New Member

    So where am I bashing anyone for keeping a fish? All I state is I am against people promoting killing fish. I find it frustrating when guy's like Doug go against higher size limits like on Green Bay to protect the fish to their full potential. Sticking up for guy"s that are keeping 4 to5 50+inchers every fall. I see a sign that promotes killing the big fish you catch because if you let it go no one can look at it.
    Do I expect anyone to kick out someone from their shop because somebody brings in a muskie? No!
    Comparing trophy deer to muskies or any other trophy fish is bad math. You can grow trophy deer in 4to5 years, a muskie to get to trophy size can take 15 to 20 years or more.
    I hear from a Drunken Sconnie that all the ciscos are gone in lake Makebelieve. Here's a study that says other wise: http://news.dnr.state.mn.us/index.php/2010/08/26/studies-reveal-what-muskies-eat-impacts-other-fish-populations/
    Here's some more excerpts from the MN DNR. That kind of fishing couldn't last. By the 1920s muskie fishing was belly-up in many parts of the state. Fishing contest records from Fuller's Tackle Shop of Park Rapids, for example, show the number of trophy-sized muskies declined during 1930-59 and did not increase significantly during 1960-87, while six other fish species were increasing in size.

    And here's another one that again I will ask, Doug where do you get your numbers?
    Then-research supervisor Joe Scidmore bit. In 1979 Strand and citizen volunteers began fishing for the secrets that had eluded fisheries managers for decades. That year they caught 15 muskies large enough to receive a transmitter. Fourteen survived to the following spring. (An angler caught and kept one fish 17 days after the DNR released it.) The DNR tracked all the muskies by boat and plane. "Then came the dawn," Strand recalled of this pioneering research.

    So even after going through surgical implanted transmitters all 15 lived after being caught. Even the CFMS all the fish caught on artificial lures lived. But 100% died when using swallow rigs and live bait.
    More tidbits from the MN DNR : http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/fish/muskellunge/catch_release.html
    Population and management
    Loss of lakeshore habitat to development can harm muskie populations. Over fishing can quickly decimate a muskie population, so catch-and-release fishing is strongly recommended.
    So once again Where are you getting you numbers from?
    Dan Crooms
  10. muskiefool

    muskiefool New Member

    This just in 1940 wants you back Billiam de la Buffalo,,, C&R Works. You've been running and hiding from the "Original question for years. What DNR agency doesn't like or use C&R, Your on the record as saying it well before you went back and altered your post like you do. What State or Province Country or Continent doesn't use C&R?
    Ive been waiting oh say 2-3 years for ya.

    I think you've twisted things a bit, it seems that the drones think Bass are Sunnys are Pike are Muskie. Muskies are low density fish that take 20-30 years to die naturally.

    C&R works are there fish that die? yep no one has ever denied it. Using artificial baits has a very high survival rate survival or released fish hinges on the anglers education experience equipment and tools. I and many others spend countless hours showing people and talking them about all of these factors. Something as simple as line or your net or reel can have a great impact.
    Muskies are rare in there natural range and at the rates they are stocked in MN they are equally rare. So we as anglers decided When people destroyed Lac Seul and the Goon (prolly a bunch of your ol cronies most dead or reprogrammed by the Muskie Gestapo HAHAHA) that the fish needed to swim if anyone else was going to catch it. Crazy Huh.

    I have many many study's on C&R and the mortality rates chronicling factors and outcomes, Why don't you call Steve Quinn from in-Fisherman and axe him about C&R, but you rely on a editor to fill you in.

    She was meant to swim Bill, she is a wonderful thing, its sad all you see is a strip of skin and discarded flesh as her only value, its shows you as a sophomoric non factor.

    You spew venom and BS Bill. You are a sad man I know, the days of hen lartmen dragging dead fish around caught on 10# test are gone pally-O; gone, Muskies and the fisherman left you in the dust. Now your only hope is the occasional by-catch mount or the few once in a lifetime fish.

    C&R works, its implemented in various forms of size restrictions in min max size harvest in slot limits and total C&R as in several MN Muskie waters right now. I think we'll let science determine whats best for our fish not your clip delayed quips and drool.

    BTW I want MOAR fish canopy pics guys MOAR meow.
    The old soft shoe; Dance Bill Dance
  11. So then, it sounds like everybody is in full agreement. ::)
  12. FishArt

    FishArt Well-Known Member

    Actually Muskiefool, there's quite a few countries in Europe that it is ILLEGAL to return a caught fish. (So, you'd be wrong there, bud!) Many are Catch and Keep only. And, if I'm not mistaken they grow some of the largest Pike in the world! Actually, I'm NOT mistaken - they DO grow the biggest pike in the world!!! Further reinforcing the argument that if you caught your fish for the day and got off the lake that most fisheries would thrive.

    The way I see it, we've got the weekend warriors that harvest an occasional musky and then we have the die-hard musky fisherman that catch a lot of muskies that aren't kept, but an occasional fish or two ultimately dies from the encounter. Most musky fisheries are not hurting. Everybody SHOULD be happy. Unfortunately, the musky fanatics are not. They believe that a (replenishable) resource that is available to EVERYBODY is somehow or another THEIRS to protect. And that's a very noble task. However, the musky fanatics take it to the next level. Whenever a fisherman belittles another fisherman for keeping a LEGAL fish or threatens bodily harm to another fisherman, somethings wrong with this picture. Unfortunately, the fanatics don't see it that way because they're SO in tune with their task at hand they don't realize the collateral damage that they are causing to the whole industry. Again, there should be a happy middle ground. But, something went awry in the whole evolution process of what C&R was intended to be.

    But, I digress. This is obviously an argument where you have two sides that are light years apart. Well, actually - only ONE side that is to the extreme. And everybody here KNOWS which side that is! So, in ending I'm going to bow out with a final link that expresses my true feelings (with the fanatics) on the subject....

  13. Jason S

    Jason S New Member

    LOL! Marty. :D :D
  14. dougp

    dougp Active Member

    Marty good post ...good info ;)

    Weelll, this IS gettin' old...

    dcmusky...I have never lobbied AGAINST higher size limits anywhere. I don't know where you got that. I may have disagreed with higher size limits without DNR research and approval.

    I've also never "stuck up for " any individual who keeps or kept 4-5 50+ inchers every fall. I don't know where you got that.

    My sign expresses an opinion that I believe.

    I also stated that I support C&R. However, C&R is NOT a no killpractice.

    I would be happy to answer any more of YOUR questions IF you answer mine, since I asked first, eh ;) ;D

    Answer me this.......I mentioned a guide who claims to put over 200 muskies a year in HIS boat in one year of fishing Green Bay.

    If I go to Green bay and catch and kill a legal musky this fall ....am I more of an individual threat to the Green Bay fishery......or is he?

    Simple question, why no answer ???

    muskiefool, as above, I will be happy to discuss what I said about the DNR and C&R IF you answer my question. Are you up to the challenge ???

    What is really sad here is that guys like dcmusky and muskiefool do some really positive and powerful things for the musky fisheries and yet feel the need to attack , demonize and belittle rather than show tolerance for a different point of view in discussion on an important topic to us both. Just read the posts on here by muskiefool and decide for yourself.

    I have heard nothing to rebut the information in the In-Fisherman article on C&R.

    I'm sorry that some of you musky guys feel the need to be so condscending and malicious in your posts.

    We are in agreement with most of what you profess. I object to your methods and requirement that everyone march in lock step.

    When I initially posted some opinions , which still have not been refuted, on The Next Bite, I was labeled a "killer' and "musky murderer". Boy that's a great way to bring someone into agreement.

    My profession and livelyhood was attacked, as it on was here. I was told that they couldn't wait 'til the cavemen like me died along with skin mounts.

    I am said, by muskiefool, to spew venom and BS, yet none of my questions or info has been answered much less successfully rebutted. Yiou guys can decide for yourself who spews the "venom."

    Unfortunately this has become a personal vendetta against me, in particular, because I have come into "their house" and voiced opinions and raised questions that are "off limits" to the enforcers of the C&R movement. Make no mistake guys, if you support a customers choice to keep and mount a musky, you will also be on their "list."

    Sorry, that's just me.........I'll dance to my own tune.


  15. dougp

    dougp Active Member

    To illustrate what Marty has said about fanatics protecting "Their fish" there was an interview on the OUTDOOR NOTEBOOK radio program on WJOL in Joliet IL. last Sat. with another well known outdoor writer and radio show host.

    Long story short, he was musky fishing with another boat fairly close by. Mr. Outdors had a "blow up" by a musky and told the other angler to cast where the b.u. occured. the angler caught the fish, yada, yada.....then the angler had the nerve to say it was his first legal musky and wanted to KEEP IT :eek: :eek: OMG :eek: ::)

    Mr. Outdoors then said to the angler and I paraphrase if you don't release that fish we are going to come in your boat and tear you apart.

    After some "discussion" he said the angler agreed to release the fish.

    This a perfect example of the attitudes of guys like muskiefool and other fanatics who use threats and intimidation to hold power over their agenda.

    I don't believe the story he told to be true but it illustrates the mind set of the zealot.

    Just to be clear the host of OUTDOOR NOTEBOOK was not the storyteller.

  16. dougp

    dougp Active Member

    muskiefool, aka, John Underhill, mentioned the Lac Seul fishery. He said it was probably destroyed by some of my "cronies".

    Here's something that illustrates a point I've made a number of times that has not been addressed......here's another's opinion about Lac Seul.


    Attached Files:

  17. dougp

    dougp Active Member

    Now, if you musky guys want to challenge that........why don't you attack the authors of that article ;D

    I didn't write it....but I can read and comprehend what it says, eh ???


    Answer me this.......I mentioned a guide who claims to put over 200 muskies a year in HIS boat in one year of fishing Green Bay.

    If I go to Green bay and catch and kill a legal musky this fall ....am I more of an individual threat to the Green Bay fishery......or is he?

  18. dcmusky

    dcmusky New Member

    Answer me this.......I mentioned a guide who claims to put over 200 muskies a year in HIS boat in one year of fishing Green Bay.

    If I go to Green bay and catch and kill a legal musky this fall ....am I more of an individual threat to the Green Bay fishery......or is he?

    i will say you, why? Because you will single out just a big fish and the guides fish may or may not be a huge one. You have a right to keep a 50 on GB and I will not threaten your wife and kids but that is the way I see it.
    I agree a little with the Lac suel author in that a C&R angler should consider the hooks and placement of hooks for optimum survival of the fish. I myself will not use bulldawgs as they have shown to be deep hooking lures resulting in dead fish.
    Yes you too are correct Marty, some places in Europe do ban C&R. Do you know who got this to be so? PETA so who's more PETA like, me or you?
  19. FishArt

    FishArt Well-Known Member

    Yeah, and that guide is ONLY killing ONE musky out of those 200 DC??? Statistcally you have to KNOW that is several to many fish UNDERESTIMATED.

    "More PETA-like"??? Is that a rhetorical question DC???

    I just scratch my head wondering if people like you just say silly things to get us riled up and stir the pot OR are you REALLY that ________ ??? [I don't want to start name calling here (so, fill in the blank!)]
  20. EA

    EA Well-Known Member

    IMO, The group who tries to impose their views and positions on another group ,even though the second group is following all the laws and regulations in a moral ,ethical, sporting manner, is more like PETA. Actually ,exactly like PETA.. Wonder which group fits this description ?