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Discussion in 'Tanning' started by hounddoggy, Jan 5, 2011.

  1. hounddoggy

    hounddoggy Member

    I spoke with you the other day and ordered some Tru-Bond. I mentioned a cape issue that you felt was under hydrated and possibly under neutralized. I think I figured it out and could likely learn ALOT if you could spare a moment to read this and give your expert opinion.

    O.K, here goes. I tanned 3 hides. I use the standard salt rehydrate pickle neut and tan. When i hand shaved the snout on these deer the skin was soft on top but under that layer was tough, raw appearing skin. You felt it was under rehydrated. O.K. Being the rookie idiot that i am, lesser by the year Thank God, I test fitted these capes, didnt like it, and then i re-brushed on the tan and covered over night. Next day i rinsed and proceeded.

    My thinking is that by retanning I really "tightened up" these capes. Is that thinking on the right line? Secondly, if as you suspected, these capes were not fully neutralized or rehydrated, by re-tanning i REALLY screwed the pooch. Have I figured this out correctly? I once heared that some improve the stretch of capes by oiling twice. Now i realize that oiling twice and tanning twice AINT THE SAME KITTY!Dangit!! I dont know where i went wrong as i usually rehydrate fully. Heck, i even dump out my rehydration baths half way through and re do them just to keep it all as clean as i can!. Im picky and ticked that i goofed some how.

    I dont know if my assumptions are correct and felt your knowledge would shed some light as to whether or not i have this figured out.

    I have one more cape. It was done the same way as the other two which are now mounted. This is a 20 inch cape but it wont budge past 19. Should i brush on the bakingsoda and water to help it "let out" and try the 20 or is the risk of slip to great doing this? I have never lost a cape so far and ive had some rough ones. This cape was processed quickly without rot issues.It is in the freezer for now.

    This may be a dumb, last question but here goes. Are the mechanics of a tan that ensure the hair is locked in tight also responsible for a tight unstretchy cape. Therefore its a balancing act trying to get the ratio between tight hair and stretch to a useable ratio?

    Thanks very much for your time.
  2. Rhino

    Rhino Too many irons in the fire will put the fire out!

    What tan are you using now? You havent got the TB 1000 yet.

    The skin need to go back into a pickle, before anything else is done. From what you described to me, the skin was not rehydrated, or pickled long enough.

    I thought you understood what I meant by "not fully rehydrated", and you knew where to go from there. You tried to move forward, when you should have went backwards. You didnt through that cape straight into the pickle, did you?

    I will get back to this later. Anyone else have an opinion, fire away!

  3. I think OS is right on as usual. Doesn't sound like it was rehydrated enough and the tan didn't pentrate. By retanning, you ended up with a piece of cardboard.

  4. hounddoggy

    hounddoggy Member

    hahahaha Bruce, you got that right
  5. I feel sorry for your customers. What would you do without this site? Well, do you actually learn anything here? Just curious.
  6. hounddoggy

    hounddoggy Member

    Ill post some pics for you MR ROSS......Then you can judge. Watch Bone collector this Thursday. They are supposed to do a piece on a 15 inch wide 191 inch buck.....yep, i am mounting that. Why? Because i mounted a few huge ranch bucks for the guy who got that buck earlier this year. I have 50 left for the year. I had 3 capes give me a fit and asked a KIND AND KNOWLEDGEABLE person(Oldshaver) to help me figure it out. Nothing more nothing less.

    Yes, I have learned alot. If it were not for this site i would be a powder jockey with the same amount of customers! Im in year number 3. This is year 2 with tanning. Guess you picked it up alot quicker than me ! Thats great.

    When i get a minute and can figure out how to load picks with photo bucket, i will do so.I have learned that pics usually change peoples hateful remarks. Im not the type to brag but hopefully when i load pics i will gain your respect and a few others. If not, oh well im too busy mounting deer to really care.
    Several on here get tired of my rants. I get keyed up sure. Cant help that. I have a passion for this and feel blessed to have all of the work i do.

    Thanks to all who have selflessly shared knowledge and have put up with me. Im a better taxidermist for this site!

    God Bless, hd
  7. hounddoggy

    hounddoggy Member

    Oh and by the way Ross you want to call some of my customers........you may be shocked Ross.....ill get this photo bucket thing figured out this weekend and then talk your smack!!

    Im good enough to stay busy.......after picks you decide how good.........i dont boast or slander people
  8. coonhollow

    coonhollow Active Member

    I will give it a shot, maybe I'm wrong.. how did you rehydrate it? salt and water? one thing I have found using a surfactant
    (lipasolve 55) in the rehydration makes a huge difference!
    Aubrey can correct anything missing!

    All skins should be salted and dried for 3 days. “This is a very important step.”
    1. To every 2 gallons of water, add the following:
    a. 1/2lb salt
    b. 1oz LIPA-SOLVE 55
    c. 2oz CITRIC ACID (as a bactericide and a slight pH drop)
    Rehydration times will vary, depending on the type of skin.
    Depending on size and how hard the skin is.(This is the tricky part of re-hydrations. It’s hard to explain when a skin is ready to go to the pickle.)
    a. deer / 4-8 hrs
    b. elk / overnight
    Quickly rinse all skins after pulling from the re-hydration, and let drain for 30min.

    After fully rehydrated
    2. To every 2 gallons of water, add the following:
    a. 2lbs salt
    b. 1.5 ounces of ENVIRO-PICKLING ACID (This acid only requires 1/2oz per gallon of water, but adding the extra 1/2oz up-front, will take care of the initial pH rise after adding the skin.
    c. ALL skins should be in pickle for a minimum of 48hrs total. Optimum time is 72hrs.
    d. ALL skins should be placed back in pickle overnight after shaving. Possibly longer if still thick.

    Flesh and return to the pickle..

    after skins have been in pickle for 24hrs.
    e. Skins that need to be degreased, should be degreased during the pickle. 2oz of LIPA-SOLVE 77, should be added for every 2gal of pickle.

    after FULLY pickled
    3. To every 2 gallons of water, add the following:
    a. 1/2lb salt
    c. 30min for all skins deer size and smaller
    d. 45min for skins larger than deer(also ALL boar capes)

    proceed to tanning!
  9. hounddoggy

    hounddoggy Member

    Thanks for that Coon Hollow. I salt dry rehydrate with 1/2 lb salt per gal of water and 2 oz of ultimate acid just to make me feel good with the bacteria. I rehydrate til there are no tough areas. Next i pickle. I use 7 gallon pickles and usually do 5 in a batch in seperate pickles for each hide. After 3 days i shave and return to pickle. i will touch up shave the next day. My capes are in the pickle any where from 4 days to week depending on my work load. Next i neutralize with 1 spoon of baking soda per gal. of water. I NOTICED YOU ADDED SALT IN THIS STEP. I have never done that in the neutralization bath. Next i dry with towels as dry as i can get them. i hang them for 20-30 min for additional drying until i cant pinch water out of cape. then i brush on the jrtc.

    Out of 60 capes ive only had issues with 3. I measure everything meticulously and never have this issue. I goofed or something obviously. These are the capes that had slack when mounted(another of my rants). They are working out but it took alot of taxi work.They are looking much better so no harm. Ive never lost a cape and usually have great results. Its most likely that i goofed some how some where and not the tan ive used for 2 years now jrtc. All the same i am going to be trying tru-bond as many tout it highly. This was my first issue with a tanned capes so out of 60 capes or more i thought i was doing fine. Again, thanks Coon Hollow and OS
  10. I just call it like I see it, and maybe I'm not seeing it all, but I'd be scared shitless to have you as a taxidermist, and see some of the questions you post on here. It's not slander, or smack.

    Hope you find your answer, and sorry to step in. Good luck
  11. Rhino

    Rhino Too many irons in the fire will put the fire out!

    HD, I would take that cape, and put it in 3 gallons of warm water, with 3/4 lb salt TTL, 3oz degrease(surfactant type-soapy) for 4 hours. Aggitate it once in a while.

    Then put it back in a pickle, for 24hrs.

    Then, neutralise it again. This formula is just for this cape. In 3 gallons of water, add 5oz baking soda, and 3/4 lbs salt. Leave it in 45min, then re-tan it.

    Good luck to ya!
  12. hounddoggy

    hounddoggy Member

    Thanks OS i will give it a shot
  13. Uncle Harley

    Uncle Harley New Member

    ok I may be waaay in left field but should you be adding acid to a rehydration bath? I have never done so and have never read where to do so. Wouldn't this esentially be a pickle which in my experience if you pickle a hide without full rehydration you will lose stretch If you are worried about bacteria add a bacterialcide. I personally like to use a little kemal 4 in my rehydration and have had good results.
  14. coonhollow

    coonhollow Active Member

    Harley Kemal 4 is a surfactant it wont wet or pull as much as 55 but same concept. I have used both and just switched 2 capes from the rehydration to the pickle a few minutes ago and never had the skins so soft and pliable in a rehydration with Kemal. It pulls much more dirt and blood out of the skin also.
  15. Uncle Harley

    Uncle Harley New Member

    I buy kemal by the gal and have alot left since I started sending out. When I run out I will try the lipi solve for the few I still do in house.
  16. coonhollow

    coonhollow Active Member

    I had 2 average capes, not dirty looking, one had a blood stained area in a very small area of the hide nothing I would have washed put it in earlier today agitated it a few times and one final time before we went out to dinner and did some running around and when we got back it looked filthy. ask Dan this stuff really pulls dirt and blood away from the skins well.
  17. Not to change the subject but has anybody tried the LIPA-SOLVE 55 on bird skins for degreasing and if so how did it work. Always looking for a better bird degreaser.
  18. coonhollow

    coonhollow Active Member

    not yet but I will be along with the 77
  19. copper

    copper Active Member

    best bird degreaser on the market is dawn dish soap. after flesing, cover bird with soap only and rub into skin fairly well and let sit 5-7 min. rinse with rather warm water and then soak in dawn and water soak with warm warm water for 20 min, or so. take a thumbnail and rub the bird while in the soak and you can actually see grease dissaper in frnt of your eyes,
  20. Guerra

    Guerra New Member

    X2 on using Dawn on birds.