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Metal Ear Tag

Discussion in 'Deer and Gameheads' started by mooser, Jan 9, 2011.

  1. TD

    TD My GGG Grandfather John "Tanner John" King b 1820

    Well......I for one........Do Not like .........
    Thieves and Liars.......
    Do what ever your gut tells you to do but be smart about it........dont get yourself in the middle of it......
    Get paid first............
  2. DCon

    DCon New Member

    G.. Lacy is very broad, and it can apply to passing game off taken in one state from being passed of as otherwise legal game in another. I won't say for sure that Lacy was violated, but it's damn sure some state laws were, which makes the guy a poacher.

    The guy apparently is trying to pass this off as a wild kill. From the info provided, it may have been in the wild when killed for the guy to seek admission in the record book. I understand your not much of a hunter, but if you were there are a bunch of similar cases on record with idiots trying to falsify records and pass of farm animals for wild kills.

    I would imagine that transport laws with the possible CWD connection may also apply, but as you say I'm not Sherlock Holmes. If the animal orginated in Wis. I'm dang sure the game agency in what ever state it was killed in will want to know how it got there. Any one of several ways, all illegal could have gotten it there.

    George, if in your business, you think it's fine to condone poaching then that's on you. I don't. My guess is that the average taxidermist relys more ont he"wild" business than the "farm animal" business and wants the sport to continue. If we condone poaching or help cover it up, then that's in doubt. Don't ASSume you don't see it. You need to keep your ass comment to yourself, pal.

  3. Paul C

    Paul C New Member

    George was just trying to say that because it has a metal tag in its ear---typical of pen raised animals--that it is NOT a wild animal and is (theoretically) no different than a cow or pig. The guy may be a dishonest scumbag looking for record book glory with his checkbook but he's not a poacher. He shot a farm animal!
  4. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Nice try but no cigar AGAIN. If it was a game farm animal, REGARDLESS of what the guy may or may not have been trying to "pass off", I wouldn't stand up in court. Noel Feather should provide enough background on that issue.

    And PLEASE, don't play that "ethics" crap card. I don't condone "poaching", but unless I'm sitting in the truck, who the hell am I to pass judgement. If I witness it, then I'm going to report it, but "knowing" and "think I know" are two different issues. If poaching is so reprehensible, what about a guy bring you a duck or animal that you "knew" was over his limit for that season? What about not claiming cash payments on your taxes? What about speeding or breaking a stop sign? Usually the most scanctimonious are the ones who rationalize and decide which "sins" aren't as important as others. It is NOT my job to press MY ethics on someone else and it's NOT my job to enforce game laws nor to investigate what MIGHT be violations. The Fed states that 90% of American paper money has drug evidence on the paper. Do you think the banker should have you investigated when you make a deposit?
  5. michael p.

    michael p. Getting better with age :)

    OR......the elk could have wandered into New Mexico from Texas. I mean there are KIND CLOSE to each other :)


    I can explain that very easily....it is called an escaped animal. High fences are not escape proof. I shot a deer and not many people know (well I called George and told him....and now all of you do :) ) but I don't have a high fence (that i'm aware of) for miles around my property but yet once when I walked up to a buck I had harvested what did that sucker have in his ear.....a freaking ear tag! LOL

    Texas has a HUGE free roaming population of Axis deer.....how did they get here?? The state didn't release them. When it floods these high fences catch more trash than your typical fence because of the mesh and the weight washes them away thus freeing the animals.

    Whether he shot this in New Mexico or Texas is between him and God, not you and his Mastercard. IF you turn this guy in whether or not he is guilty it will tarnish you. If he's guilty he may get off and your name is mud....if he's completely innocent then you are really screwed! Your name will be known all the way in Africa as "that Taxidermists who spends his free time investigating his clients for the Feds"
    As I said, an Elk with a Wisconsin tag roaming freely around Texas or New Mexico is NOT an implausible situation just as it isn't for a guy 10 miles from here to bring me a gold class Sika deer he shot from his free range deer stand.......my gosh, my buddy (and taxidermy.net member) Rooster called me a few months ago on his trip between Kerrville, Texas and Fredricksburg, Texas and exclaimed rather loudly "I just almost his a $##%^ zebra with my truck!".......and your wondering about an elk from Wisconsin?! ROTFLMAO!!

    Mount it up and get paid for it......trust me, STRANGER circumsataces than this will occur in this business :)
  6. antlerman

    antlerman NTA Life Member #0118

    Lets take this one step further. I have on my mounting stand at this very moment a Red Stag Bull that would rival anything in the record books. Is it a New Zealand Stag?? No. It is an Illinois High Fence Game Farm Stag. Lets suppose this guy decides he wants to enter it in the book and say that he killed it in New Zealand. How would they ever know? Well, they wouldn't unless someone took exception to it and said something to the proper authorities. But forget that for a moment.....WHAT laws has he broken concerning the Lacey Act? NONE. He's guilty of lying and perhaps perjury, but what Lacey acts laws did he violate? None that I can think of. So he claims he killed the animal in Tim buck Too. Who cares? Unless the animal was in fact transported across state lines without proper paper work while it was still alive.....there is no violations. He can say he killed it in Hong Kong. His claim does NOT support any allegations that this animal crossed state lines illegally. Every elk breeder is licensed by the USDA. No one of these licenced breeders is gonna sell or transport an animal illegally just so someone can kill it in a certain location. Not going to happen. Plus, any buyer of said live elk must also be licensed and a paper trail will exist on that animal. So at best, you have a guy who has lied about where he killed the elk. So what. He's a liar and a cheat. But not a criminal.

    In Noel Feathers case, he tagged the deer with an Illinois tag. He killed the deer in Missouri inside a high fence. Noel did not commit a crime up until he TAGGED the deer and crossed state lines without the proper transportation papers with what was alleged to be a wild deer, but was in fact a captive deer. Had he not tagged the deer, he would have not committed a crime. But thats not all. He also committed a crime when he transported a captive deer across state lines without proper paperwork. So, they had him either way.

    I don't see either of these scenario's with your guy. If so, please explain how. Maybe there's something I'm not seeing.
    So far I'm only seeing that your guy claims to have killed it someplace that he did not. But what proof do you have that says this animal actually crossed state lines without proper paperwork while still alive? And what state tag is accompanying that animal?
  7. DCon

    DCon New Member

    So, when you take in a animal to mount that should be tagged, and isn't, what do you put down on your records? I'm asking because I don't take anything in without proper tags or confirmation numbers and don't know?

    Now I will ASSume George, that being the taxi man took in the elk to mount that it had a tag or tag number of some sort? either from Texas or N.M.? If it did, then the guy did violate state tagging laws either in Tex. or N.M.
  8. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    Restocking programs use animals from captivity all the time. The Lacy act allows for wildlife that crosses state lines, and in many cases its state by state law as to whether an animal can be recognized as captive, wild or otherwise. Its not so cut and dried as our suggested answers.

    Mounting it could put YOU in jeopardy IF the elk arrived whole. If it was caped and the skullplate processed, Id then say mount it and THEN tip off the game people and PandY. Thats just me...
  9. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    My state has no tag requirements and taxidermists are only responsible for having the hunter's name, address, and phone number available IF checked. I get elk, moose,caribou, and antelope all the time without any "tags". Still, that has nothing to do with the discussion. IF the client supplies me with all that I'm legally required to have, it's still none of my business to authenticate any of it. I see I'm hardly alone in that opinion either.

    And Bill, those are New York requirements I'm supposing. Many states don't have all that paperwork you and several of the upper midwestern states seem to thrive on. If you bring me a bear, I don't care if it's lived on Twinkies or garbage cans, if it's "tagged" or not, nor where you shot it or what weapon you used to take it, if you were licensed or not, thousands of other "exceptions". The sounded like a taxidermist risking his reputations just for noseyness.
  10. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    "And Bill, those are New York requirements I'm supposing."

    George, I didnt say or give any requirements, I just noted that different states have requirements that vary, there are not always across the board reciprocal standards for example. The only tag reference we have here is due to the fact that his elk DOES have one, thats all. For what its worth, Im not even disagreeing with anyone.
  11. michael p.

    michael p. Getting better with age :)

    Here in Texas the tag stays WITH THE MEAT and there ARE NO TAGS for elk. There are New Mexico elk tags, but if you brought that elk to Texas from New Mexico that tag would HAVE TO stay with the processor.

    A couple of months ago a man brought a deer in, just the antlers, and asked for a cape. He proceeded to tell me that in late January last year he was fishing in East Texas, this deer was swimming across the lake and him and a friend beat it with a boat paddle and then drown the deer.....I told him in exact verbage "you need to get the **** out of my shop". On the other hand if people bring in a deer AND CAPE that has no license attached I am to only assume that it was legally harvested and they then MUST fill out a Wildlife Resource Document in my presence.

    I do not interrogate my customers and could really care less about if they are trying to cheat a record book.......I can see where some would be upset such as Wayne but numbers and scores do not mean anything to me. I am looking at a 215 rack and a 90 rack right now and guess what......they both pay me $500.

    BUT, if somebody comes in here boasting about an illegal kill I do not pick up the phone but I do run their ass out. If they hesitate or persist I have my local wardens number programed into my phone.

    My warden does not call me everytime HE THINKS a person might want to get an animal mounted and I do not call him anytime I THINK a customer is shady but if somebody asks about me he will gladly give them my number and if somebody wants to press an issue I will return the favor.

    Mooser, do what you want BUT be aware of the horrific repercussions if you are wrong.......if you feel that lucky play the lottery :)
  12. WOW!! Thanks for all the replies. Unfortunately a lot of you are way of base. For starters the elk has been mounted and delivered about 8 months ago. I don't question the methods of the taking of the elk, if I had I would not have accepted the animal. The only thing I am questioning is the ear tag and where he claimed it being harvested for P&Y enrollment. The guy is squawking about some other stuff and I am basically getting myself prepared to squawk back even louder. I will not accept anything else from this guy again. Nothing illegal, just a PITA (Pain In The Ass) customer and because at this time in my life I can. So in la manes terms, the guy is being an asshole and I am about to show him a bigger asshole. As far as bitting the hand, that POS is the one that bit the wrong hand, not me. I gave this guy some crazy stupid deals and thinks he deserves more. Anyways thank you all for your replies.
  13. It was a animal ID ear tag like buffalo have. It was not a harvest tag. And for the record is did come caped out already. That is basically what I am trying to figure out. Would a Wisconsin captive elk be released into a wild range in NM or TX? Because I do know that GFP, DNR or who ever your state has does do wild animal transplants.
  14. michael p.

    michael p. Getting better with age :)

    Get rid of him NOW!

    Texasanches buy animals from all over the world!! I recently mounted an Nyala and Lechwe........they lived on a ranch 15 miles from my front door :) LOL
  15. AKfurbearer

    AKfurbearer New Member

    WHAT THE HELL>>>>>>Is this what our profession has turned into, DO ANY OF YOU KNOW WHAT THE WORD ETHICS STANDS FOR.
    Are there really that many of people in this business with poor character and respect for their fellow sportsman. What about the honest hardworking customer that lives his life doing it the honest way. What about his hard earned trophy. If you actually believe that letting this type of deed just slide it says MOUNTAINS about who you really are and maybe hints somewhat of your past behavior in matters like this. Do you poach, have you ever, do you condone such behavior??
    stand tall or we will all fall.
    Pass the ammo please, The forest service workers that burned all of Arizona's forest have sneaked into the back door of the Professional(?) taxidermist members.
  16. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    Geez guys, dont throw this guy to the wolves just yet! Its a simple little metal livestock clip affixed to the upper edge of the ear, Im guessing. I see it on elk taken in NM too. Nowadays my state requires that I put two of them on all of my captive deer, and theyre "uniquely numbered" as mine for my own herd. They start with 21 which designates them as New York, its an agricultural numeric system.
  17. michael p.

    michael p. Getting better with age :)

    What's a MOUNTAIKNS ???
  18. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    AK, do YOU know what the word "ethics" means. YOUR ethics likely aren't anywere close to MY ethics. Ethics are what you do when no one else is looking. You see, down here we don't have "subsistance hunting" as that would be UNETHICAL. We can't shoot the damned wolves cause it's ILLEGAL and if a black bear is breaking down our door, the bleeding heart animal rights activists expect us to CALL Animal Control. So tell me how that fits in with YOUR ethics? The last person you want to get into a discussion about "ethics" is me because everytime I see somebody like you bragging about yours, I know you're hiding something. Obviously you haven't READ this post as "poaching" has not one damned thing to do with any of it.
  19. antlerman

    antlerman NTA Life Member #0118

    From the way things sound NOW, in that you mounted it 8 months ago, you are looking to stir the pot. You didn't have a problem with it then, so why would you have a problem with it now? Conscience bothering you? Nay.
    Funny how sometimes these stories come on here in bits and pieces and you don't get the whole story until page 3 or 4. I'm done with this thread. Bye
  20. AKfurbearer

    AKfurbearer New Member

    Your Ethics you live by, are a big part of your character and aren't something you turn off or on As fits your needs. And so you will know George what you should do when no one is looking is the same thing you should do when everyone is looking. And you are right George its plain to see my ethics are far different than yours, I thank the Good Lord and a proper upbringing for that. If you have poor ethics then you have a damaged character, as shown by ones behavior. And you seem to have failed to realize that just because you sit, stuck where you are in life. You never learned this in the old school when it meant something. You may think you are the king of your beast. But that's just your opinion and it don't mean crap to the old generation. Just that you never understood what it really means.I remember when it really meant something to the world we lived in. And even if you say you were born with it ,its your responsibility to correct it. And for the record George not every one in Alaska lives off subsistence hunting.
    And so you won't forget. Poaching was a reference to the Ethics, and character of individuals that for some reason didn't care where a trophy animal came from -but more interested in the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. And for MOUNTAINS.. I'm far to old to remember spell check. what the hell do you need that fer.
    Oh that's how spell check works, I'm not that impressed. AND AGAIN, for the record and betterment of mankind. What you do when no one is looking is easy. You do the same thing you do when everyones looking. But if you don't then go ahead and take it to someone that doesn't' mind and all they want is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
    Sometimes you young folk seem to think everbody else gives a dam about your lack of the good word. You have only one judge, your self. Its what makes you, one of us or one of them. Pitch all the crap you want George, you will never change or bury the truth. And if you don't run out, well that pretty much says it all..................>