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Discussion in 'Fish Taxidermy' started by tfrenzel, Aug 12, 2011.

  1. Marshy just wait until you have some fish thats been hanging around homes for 30 odd years, you will see faded ones, even using the best of paints will fade, some people open their curtains and others will hang the fish where the sun will shine on it.

    UV blockers in paint as a very cheap defense!
     
  2. marshy creek

    marshy creek New Member

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    give me a break John....I'll be dead in 30 years...and if you think for one minute 2 part auto gloss is adding anything extra to a home bound fish, you are nuts....and, if you think color pigment lessens in time you sure are a fool...what it is applied too and how it is applied is whats matters...more often than not, it is the finish coat that faulters first,not the pigment coat...that has been proven many times with antique artwork...it is the finish coat that is usually removed to expose the pure unchanged pigment coat underneath...pigment is pigment, no matter what carrier it is mixed with....the more you post, the more BS your posts become....re adjust your reporator
     

  3. Joey Arender

    Joey Arender big mouth alert

    Brian that holy comment wasn't meant toward you. But there are a few guys on here (taxinet not this thread) that it was meant for. And yes if this is his first and he has a background in art as he says and he is only doing reproductions, then yes open the door. As he said its just a different canvas . His work on that reproduction is already par with some fulltimers. Hell he will be a lot better then me in one more fish if he truly looks at the reference he claims to have. I struggle like crap to produce nice mounts. I am just glad I don't have to make money doing this. I'd been gone a long time ago if I did.
     
  4. hambone

    hambone Well-Known Member

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    Try toning down the green and the flesh and then hang your fish where your customers can see them and let them tell you what they think of them after all that's who your trying to please I doubt if you'll be selling many on this site anyway, you got a good range of advise on here I'm sure you can sort it out, anyway good luck to you and keep posting. PS something tells me a year from now you'll be doing something I'd be envious of, fishing on the chartered days and painting fish on the others. ;D
     
  5. Marshy, you need to take a long slow breath. I have used the rattle can crap and dont like it it does nothign for the fish. If clear 2 part did nothing they would not be selling it.
     
  6. FishArt

    FishArt Well-Known Member

    Marshy, colors certainly DO fade thru time. And the UV protectors in automotive glosses have come a long way. Red is the worst color and years ago it would only take a few years in direct sunlight and that cars paint would be very noticeably faded. Today that same car would take a decade or longer before any noticeable fading would occur. With fish and modern windows with UV protection built right in - things are much better. But, using a UV gloss certainly won't hurt things and most anybody will agree that the shine from a 2 part is the best you're going to see. It's the nasty stuff in it and the lack of portability as to why I don't use one...
     
  7. Brian W

    Brian W Well-Known Member

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    Marty,
    Hey, didnt mean my comments to come off as disrespectful or arrogant and wasnt singling you out. Just my business experience and training kicking in. I try to look at any business situation, which all business's have common ground, from a goal oriented template, with the foundation or building blocks as product knowledge, demographics, business experience and a working written business plan that warrants the inception. And the fact I know myself, I paint repros different now than the first couple I've done and I have an art background also......
    I can understand what you are saying but we can just agree to disagree on this one.... ;D I wouldnt want to jump into a business where I had to charge X because that's the starting value price due to the experience level and then, probably within a short period of time and due to the progression in quality, charge Y because the product and value were increased. What the customer sees and remembers is the price increase. I would rather shoot out of the blocks with enough experience to charge Y and possibly (excluding the hedge against inflation factor) retain that price line for a consistent period of time. As I see it, tfrenzel, will progress rapidly, seeing where his starting point is, so why not just keep the clutch in until then, all the time, accumulating leads and building a business plan. I remember early in my career before owning my own business, I had to accumulate 500 X-dates (leads) before they would hire me coupled with training, and securing the licenses. That only served to prepare me to succeed.
    And Joey, you dont give yourself enough credit man..........you would do very well if you had to bank on your talent.......
     
  8. FishArt

    FishArt Well-Known Member

    Brian - no worries mate - nothing personal taken btw. We just disagree on this one. No biggie.

    On a side note, I've increased my prices TWICE this year already and it really hasn't affected my business one bit except that I'm getting MORE work! Crazy, huh? I explain to my customers the "whys" and nobody seems to have a problem with spending an extra $40-$80 bucks per fish. I've been afraid to go up in the last few years so in reality it's been a long time comin'!!!

    P.S. My oldest texted me a pic of a Goat he saw at a local car show. It almost looked yours!!!! You weren't in Channahon, Illinois this past weekend were you???

    P.S.S. I THINK Joey's comments were more of a sarcastic response to my previous posts. That's the way I took it anyway (pretty funny if they were - lol!)
     
  9. Joey Arender

    Joey Arender big mouth alert

    Dang Marty starting to figure me out. Lol
     
  10. Brian W

    Brian W Well-Known Member

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    Great Marty, that's the result of you proving to your clientele that you are worth the extra money. You earned that raise with a solid rep and quality work. A beginner doesnt have that opportunity....YET....lol.
    Goat hasnt been out in awhile but the Firehawk and Camaro have seen some action. Pulled out my 94 stepside with the supercharger in it also but nothings been out of Michigan. And last weekend we were sitting on Mackinac Island. The only transportation there is boat, bike or horse.........I tried, but couldn't get the horses to do a burn out...... ;D
     
  11. marshy creek

    marshy creek New Member

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    Marty....I respect your opinion and do not want to challenge you...however, any paint that has Titanium Dioxide in it will fade......it is light sensitive, and a UV absorber......the carriers in paint vary greatly......those without a base of Titanium Dioxide, will never fade period.......once your base carrier that contains Titanium Dioxide is applied, UV light is absorbed.....if you move to a paint that contains no Dioxide as a base, you will find not fading.......it is a primary component in Gel Coat...not what some believe on this site to be Bondo and Resin = Gel Coat.....it is nothing than thinned Bondo with resin.....in fact, the characteristics of hardness is much weaker......it does work for minimal pulls, but in the end your effort is lost in the material longevity in your molds......thousands of old world paintings have been restored by removal of the finish to expose the underlining colors......most of which are pure pigment without a carrier.....red as you say is the first color to disappear in the lite spectrum...and any color that contains Titanium Dioxide is usually a pastel color....true color is what you need to remove from black, to obtain the shade you are looking for, hence antiquing.....it becomes a base to add color too and build from black......not add to white....you can see this every day on this site asking for critiques........IMO, questions to paint suppliers on this very question would help more than it would hurt.....with all that said, do what works best for you, and keep learning and moving forward
     
  12. Harum

    Harum Active Member

    Working from a black base then adding your colors has been used for many years as a way to intensify the reflection of color. In general drawing is from light to dark and paintings are dark to light. However, when one needs to duplicate the subtleness of a live fish, dark to light can be a hindrance. The reason for this is the addition of metallic's as well as the glow in the lower third of a fish. If I was to paint a flat art piece, that required a metallic look, I would start with a base similar to black and paint the illusion of metallic's. These same illusions do not work properly in the round (actual metallic's are much more effective). I use dark to light in the upper third of a fish and a portion (depending upon the amount of metallic's needed) of the middle third but do not from there down. Flat art and a 3D fish are not the same thing. I have found that they require different techniques to achieve the desired results. Quite often I will go dark to light and light to dark within the same area on a fish. By the way the only reason Red would appear as one color that fades faster is due to the use of poor quality pigment. Red is rather expensive compared to other pigments and short cuts are made when producing paint. With my studies I have yet to come across the statement that red is the first color to dissipate within the light spectrum. Something I will need to look up as it has peaked my interest. I imagine it would have allot to do with the light source.


    tfrenzel,
    Maybe it will be different when your finished and it is pleasing to look at but your fish doesn't look like the reference in the background. Sometimes metallic's are under the markings as well as on top. Keep in mind how jewel-like the fish is when you pull it out of the water.
    I would enjoy seeing some of your flat art. You can post it here or in the Wildlife art and craft section.

    -Pete or OCD if your Marty ;D
     
  13. As you go deeper into the water the human eye looses red first. but does that mean the fishes eye looses red? Cannot be so because then red would not work on lures and baits.
     
  14. marshy creek

    marshy creek New Member

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    here you go Pete:
    http://www.deep-six.com/page77.htm
     
  15. Jason S

    Jason S New Member

    Its looking good. Welcome aboard LOL!
     
  16. Stephen Lafredo

    Stephen Lafredo Member

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    I think when people are saying that red fades first. What they really mean is that red tends not to be as lightfast as other colors.

    Lightfastness applies to all colors and as Harum states is dependent on the quality and source of the pigment used.

    The lightfastness or permanence (as well as the toxicity) of a color should be listed on the product label. For example, Prismacolor produces this lightfast color chart, http://www.prismacolor.com/Style%20Library/PrismaColor/media/promotions/Prismacolor_Lightfast_Color_Chart.pdf

    Here is another sample, http://www.rexart.com/colorindex.html

    In general, avoid fugitive colors and seek out newer formulations.
     
  17. FishArt

    FishArt Well-Known Member

    John, I'm a firm believer that many of those fancy colors lure manufacturer's make are to attract fisherman moreso than fish! At least it's been my experience that after location, depth and lure action - color typically comes in last as ther least important part of the fish catching equation. Not always of course. But, I've seen studies done on exactly what you're saying. And all colors start looking like browns and greens after a certain depth. And they actually changed color at very shallow depths and got worse as they went deeper. Water clarity obviously affected things as well. But even in clear water there was an extreme difference in color at 4 foot! I don't recall the studies talking about if fish see color differently than we do. Interesting thought...

    P.S. I don't know anything about all that techno-mumbo-jumbo. But, I do know with cars IF you take a red '85 Mustang and compare it's paint job to a green one exposed to similar elements. 25 years later that red looks closer to a dull orange than red. And the green car will also be faded but not nearly as much. The salt is doing the rusting and the sun is causing the fading...
     
  18. Harum

    Harum Active Member

    Marshy creek,

    You can create a simple prism by using a garden hose and spraying water into the sunlight. With this scenario the suspended water is used as a reflective tool in creating a prism. With your link they are dealing with water in its liquid state. Water in its liquid state would be considered a filter of a given light source. Much like a filter on a camera. The deeper you go the less light is reflected to the point of no light hence no color. The clarity, depth and color of the water all dictate what colors can be reflected by light.
    Water is a variable to the light spectrum. I have not found where any of the three primaries tend to defuse first within the light spectrum.

    Good point Stephen.

    -Pete
     
  19. Clew

    Clew Help a child, Build our future

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    I think this one got a bit off track
     
  20. Harum

    Harum Active Member

    Actually Carl, understanding how color works is a major step in understanding how to manipulate color to duplicate what you see in your reference.