Awww, come on. You guys are a lot meaner than I am. I started out ... 5 pages ago, or whatever .... by saying that the concept behind some of the mounts was praiseworthy. Credit where credit is due, and all that - it's just that they have a lot of issues with basic anatomy and especially with the accurate portrayal of flight mechanics. I have said it once, and I will still be saying it in the future (because we old folks always repeat ourselves ...) -- If you don't understand how a bird flies then you won't be able to portray it correctly. Study the aerodynamics of avian flight until it makes sense to you and then go for it. "Butterfly" mounts (I also call them airplane mounts) can be very attractive to your clients, and many, even most, will be perfectly happy with them - but they are still wrong in the vast majority of cases. edit: Terry, you have blown any credibility that you might have once had. Here's the sad truth: Your bird mounts are mediochre at best, and finding a novel way of attaching them to the base simply can't change that fact. You need to go back and study your reference material. You aren't going to manipulate me by trying one of the oldest tricks on the playground, because I don't need to prove anything to you.