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Ph keeps jumping....no issues with citric though??

Discussion in 'Tanning' started by josh s., Dec 7, 2011.

  1. josh s.

    josh s. Active Member

    Ph is not stable with anything but citric acid. I have used citric with no jumping on ph just fine....i get out a bottle of no harm....mix up the pickle....got it at 1.5....next morning after stirring the container...ph paper is solid blue....same paper I am using with the citric. Tests fine the night before and about 12 hours later its raised to 4-5??? Going to stick with citric but would like to use this up. Any ideas why ph stays with citric but not the no harm....same thing happened with ultimate acid as well. The cape looks plumped up....going to shave it tonight but I am worried I will lose the cape.

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  2. Justin P.

    Justin P. Active Member

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    Josh,
    Like we talked about on the phone yesterday. You need to stop rinsing your pickled capes before shaving. I'm sure that has a lot to do with it.
     

  3. josh s.

    josh s. Active Member

    Re: Re: Ph keeps jumping....no issues with citric though??

    Yeah I agree on that...but this is a new pickle....just made it after I got off the phone with ya....its like the citric stays stable....but the liquid acids like no harm...saftee...or ultimate acid, the ph goes up after a short period of time. The hide is looking good....i added a tiny bit of no harm this morning and it brought it right back down. Guess I have to try it and see.

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  4. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Citric acid would fit right above vinegar with most of us. Having the type pH problems you're describing has some major causative issue on your part. It's impossible for an acid to be turned to a base (alkali) overnight without SOME outside chemical imbalance taking place.
     
  5. josh s.

    josh s. Active Member

    Re: Re: Ph keeps jumping....no issues with citric though??

    So this is my process...when I check a deer in I cape the hide off the skull...beam any meat and fat off..for some reason cut the sputum off as well...then bag and freeze. I Don't roll them up by the way....just tri fold so the face is not exposed. Thaw and flesh the face...turn and split....takes me about 20-25 then I salt...usually just once...but have double salted here and there. I then relax the hide in plain water and it usually relaxes in less than 20 min....then into the pickle. The pickle I did yesterday was just a test...so 3 gallons....3 lbs salt .. And about 1 1/2oz of the no harm. My ph was at 1.5 then. You know the rest of it so why would citric stay and the no harm fluctuate? If its me I have no problem fixing my issues...but I need specifics. My hides look fantastic when I pickle with citric and even on the phone with justin last night he pointed out I should not be rinsing between pulling the hide out and shaving. Other than that I don't know??

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  6. bill@hogheaven

    [email protected] New Member

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    Josh....if you can rehydrqate in 20min your hide wasnt allowed to dry enough. You are putting impurities in which will mess up your ph.Use more salt & let DRY.
     
  7. josh s.

    josh s. Active Member

    Re: Re: Ph keeps jumping....no issues with citric though??

    Ok....makes sense. So I guess dry til the hide is hard then? Even after two days of salting obviously the hide is not dry...guess I didn't think you needed to dry them right out.

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  8. cyclone

    cyclone Posts: 400001

    What is your water source?

    Hard water, high in calcium carbonate, could be the culprit.

    Citric acid is an excellent chelator, (able to scavenge metal ions such as calcium), and will quench the affects of calcium. Citric is also a multiprotic acid, i.e. it donates more than one hydrogen ion per molecule. While I'm not sure on the ultimate acids or safety acids, they act very much like monoprotic acids, donating only one hydrogen ion per molecule. Increase you amount of Ultimate or safety, or stick with the citric if it is working for you.

    The amount of water on your re hydrated capes is the least likely cause of your fluctuations unless, of course, it is highly alkaline.
     
  9. josh s.

    josh s. Active Member

    Re: Re: Ph keeps jumping....no issues with citric though??

    Hmmmm...i see....so our water is 21 drops to hard...(just had a test done at Heps) and yes it produces lots of calcium build up on our faucets. I have gotten away with some stuff on coyotes and bears with the citric that I probley shouldn't have. My deer have been turning out nice as well...i just wanted to use this other stuff up...ill try another test with more acid to start and see what happens.
     
  10. cyclone

    cyclone Posts: 400001

    Or use a little bit of citric as a chelator (a shot cup) and drop the pH to where you need it with the other acid.. It should stabilize.
     
  11. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    As usual, thanx Cyclone. I knew there had to be some chemistry issue involved. As for the salting DRY, I don't think I've ever salted anything I have "dry" except work going to the tannery. If it's no longer dripping water, it's into the pickle or it has the paint on put on.
     
  12. josh s.

    josh s. Active Member

    Re: Re: Ph keeps jumping....no issues with citric though??

    Ok thanks guys..justin..as I was kn the phone with you last night I was actually scraping calcium off our faucet....ironic I guess??! I will try that to cyclone. George i am getting away from JR. its a hell of alot easier but it just isn't up to my standards any more.

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  13. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    That's just as it should be, Josh. We all have our "standards" and if we aren't satisfied, we have to "learn" and move forward. I've left JRTS a couple times as well, but end up back there. If they ever stop making it, I'm sure I'll go to LiquiTan before I get back into that mixing and stirring the pickle method.
     
  14. bill@hogheaven

    [email protected] New Member

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    George....why does the tannery want them hard? 20 years ago we had slippage problems, till Bruce Rittle told us how to salt & dry. That was the end of the problem.
     
  15. Tannertroop

    Tannertroop Member

    How did Bruce tell you to salt and dry?
     
  16. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    I consider Bruce a dear friend and he and I have butted heads over this one for years. Tanneries DON'T have to have them rock hard. You know as well as I do that bears seldom if ever dry "hard". The reason we presumed that it was required was simply "because we've always done it that way.". Once salt has removed all the moisture available in a hide, the cell structure still retains flexibility for some time. We used salt to remove the moisture and the associated chemistry involved in cell stability. When a hide (whether moist or dry but depleted of these fluids) enter's the pickle, that "thirsty" cell structures pull the pickle into themselves starting the tanning process. Krowtann is a great example of how that rule remains true regardless. I have taken "damp" hides to tanneries that I saw dropped into pickle tanks. The idea of salt DRY hides comes to us from the mountain man who spent months afield before getting his pelts to tanneries. Certainly by that time, they were all HARD dry and had to be rehydrated before the process began. If you need to REhydrate a hide for the pickle to work, why are you so intent on DEhydrating it completely? Obviously SOME moisture has to be reintroduced into the hide in order for the pickle to work effectively. My method just eliminates an unnecessary step.
     
  17. bill@hogheaven

    [email protected] New Member

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    I feel old enoughto be a mountain man & I will do what has been stopping slippage for years. We get plenty of crappy hides all year long in this wholesale business. I cant afford to lose even one. We have had hidesthat you needed a glob of Vix vapor rub on you lip to get through them, but they didnt slip.
     
  18. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    DAMN Bill, did you HAVE to say that. I just got one of those last night. It was gutshot in Ohio last Friday night. They recovered it Tuesday morning . He said that when he field dressed it, it was all blue and green and the butcher refused to even skin it. Still, he brought it here and wanted me to cape it out. I grabbed a handful of forehead hair and made the dure a baldpate. It took me all night to get that stink off of me and I was wearing an apron and rubber gloves. There wasn't enough Vicks salve to save me with that POS.