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Things are looking up Wisconsin. Sorry about your luck Pennsylvania

Discussion in 'The Taxidermy Industry' started by George, Dec 26, 2011.

  1. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Aside from the political orchestrating going on in Wisconsin, Governor Scott Walker took one helluva step to eliminate the mess created by the CWD panic of a few years back. On September 23, the Governor had seen and heard enough. He appointed a "Deer Czar" (Obama's gotta love the choice of titles). He decided that an independent, deer biology expert needed to oversee the program and appointed Dr. James Kroll as trustee. He was given the lattitude to hire assistants in order to provide a June 1, 2012 comprehensive deer management plan to the governor. He chose Dr. David Guyn, a QDMA Board member, AND DR. GARY ALT, the deposed Deer Management Supervisor for the Pennsylvania Game Commission.

    Currently, the deer management process in Wisconsin is considered by many biologists to be one of the worst as it seems driven not by biology, but by hunter demands and political pressures. Let's hope these three can get that turned around.
     
  2. franchi612

    franchi612 New Member

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    Not sure why you think that would make things better here. WI doesn't need or want your AR and obsessive doe killing. For this state supposedly being so bad, we do consistently rank in the top P&Y and B&C states. The DNR has been lying for years. I am so sick of out of staters who think they know so much about this state from reading DNR propaganda. There is no overbundance of deer. There are a few pockets that have high populations, but you can't force people to kill deer. Most areas are actually within the population goals, but the DNR counts computer deer, and not real deer. They also do not use actual harvest data to guesstimate populations. The real problem is that people are so caught up in a population number at all when most states have dropped that outdated method of management. You can't manage based on biology alone either George. Sociological management is every bit as important as biological management. This is where the problem has been- the DNR has been listening to foresters, farmers, and city folks instead of hunters. That is what has us all so peeved, and why none of us trust the DNR. Hunters have been absolutely ignored in the past 20 years in this state. I can remember pleading with the DNR at CC meetings to let us kill more doe back in the 80s, but we were told no. Now, we plead to stop earn a buck and free doe tags because there are areas that are literally devoid of deer, and we are told no. So I'm sorry, but I think that hunters, who are the only group that actually pays for deer management, should have a greater say in what is going on. What is flawed in this state is the outdated management techniques of population estimation, this idea that they can eradicate CWD by killing deer which has been proven false by many other states, the absolute lack of predator management, and over hunted, and undermanaged public lands. So what will be Kroll's and Co's solution? AR and doe killing. Now that is really going to solve problems with overabundant predators, grossly overhunted public land, and killing all the deer to stop CWD. This state has absolutely no problem with big bucks. So what will AR accomplish? NOTHING!!!! There will still be too many wolves, bears, and coyotes. There will still be public land with hunter densities of 50/sq mi or more. And there will still be CWD because you can't eradicate it. So I'm sorry, but all I see coming from this is a waste of money. Until someone addresses the REAL issues facing deer managemnt in this state, it will never get better.
     

  3. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    franchi, you'd fit right in with the ostriches in Pennsylvania. I could care less about your "record book"deer. You just admitted your distaste from doe harvest to maintain healthy deer herds. Yet YOUR STATE has one of the highest one year old buck harvest records in the nation. Imagine how many record book deer you might have if you shot a few does instead of 3inch spikes. I've seen more deer dead on Wisconsin highways than we take here during a single season. The wanton scorched earth reaction to CWD had to be the most idiotic approach ever taken to deer management and you won't find a biologist in the world to support it.

    But you're likely correct. It will be money wasted simply because of ignorance and when the very best,most scientific information is placed in front of you, it's likely to be ignored and reviled- Just like Gary Alt was in Pennsylvania. Funny thing however, even with the few years of his influence, Pennsylvania is now harvesting bucks like they haven't seen in over 60 years. Even his detractors like you are at a loss to explain that phenomenon.
     
  4. revolutionMan

    revolutionMan New Member

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    Franchi, George meant to say "' he could'nt care less"
     
  5. gohuntn

    gohuntn Member

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    PA
    I am in PA and my opinion of the "Dr. Alt" phenomenon" is, yes there are more bigger bucks being taken, because there are 130,000 less hunters than there was 10 years ago. There are less and less hunters every year and there is little chance of getting the youth hunter interested when you go weeks at a time without seeing a deer. The die-hard hunters are doing better because there is less competition and some of the bucks are getting older because people are just giving up hunting. Yes with the "Alt" rules there might be a few more spikes living another year, but massive amounts of button bucks get taken with the crazy amounts of doe tags given. How many would-be trophy bucks are taken before they are 6 months old? I have been hunting in PA for 35 years and doing taxidermy for over 25 years, and I do not like what I have been seeing with the deer herd. Thai is just my humble opinion.
     
  6. EA

    EA Well-Known Member

    I liked Alt. He knows his stuff. Look at what he did for our bear hunting.They shot over 60 in my county this year.Thats after going decades (pre-Alt) with NONE on the books.From day one, he said the goal was to reduce doe numbers, stabilize the herd AND THEN make adjustments.. He never got the chance to run his full program. The guys whining that we had no deer were the same guys who would shoot 4 or more. We were losing hunters long before Alt came on board. And We Do have More trophy buck now, no doubt about it.

    Give him a chance Wisconsin, I think you will like the outcome.
     
  7. Paul C

    Paul C New Member

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    Well said EA. The whiners complaining today are the same whiners that complained 15 years ago about seeing 50 deer in a herd and them being all does! They would see 100 deer and kill the first 4 inch spike they saw and complain about it. Whiners will always be whiners.

    The deer hunting has NEVER been better in PA and will only continue to improve. The PGC or Gary Alt did not cause hunter numbers to diminish. The same thing is happening all across the country. Are the whiners gonna blame Alt and the PGC for diminishing hunter numbers in Nebraska and Kansas too??? How about Ohio???

    People need to grow up...learn something about deer and deer HUNTING and realize that they are not entitled to "their" deer just because they bought a license.
     
  8. justin_b

    justin_b Just sayin...

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    WI
    Many of us in Wisconsin are extremely pleased to see the changes being implemented in the upper echelons of management within the DNR program.

    George, for you to say that the current plan was put in place by hunter demands, is akin to saying that a small business owner has asked for his income tax to be tripled. I don't know who came up with the idea that Wisconsin hunters have any say in the management plans for this state, but whoever did was inhaling a few too many tokes off of the happy hay!

    I personally cannot wait to see the changes put in place...the current (so called) DNR Biologists have mis-managed things so poorly, that it will take many years to offset the results of their screwed up management plans.

    The current plan can be summed up in one sentence - "Hunters, go out and and buy as MANY $2.00 antlerless tags as you can, and shoot as many deer as you can". Public land in this state is ruined for the time being...most guys that I know that hunted public land over the past 3 or 4 years did not see ONE deer over the opening weekend. Excessive anterless only deer hunts, and as many $2.00 doe tags as you can buy have ruined those areas, and most of us look forward to a plan that will effectively manage the different scenarios that we have in this state..just like every other state does.

    Those of us that own private land and haven't bought into the DNR Biologists plans are still taking quality deer each year.

    So to clarify, Georges above comment about the current plan being driven by hunter demands, is about as far from the truth as it can be and is a bunch of BS. Most of us will welcome the changes that will be coming.
     
  9. revolutionMan

    revolutionMan New Member

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    Justin,
    That may be the most accurate and well written post relative to the Wi. deer situation I have ever read. Go one!!!!!!!
     
  10. gohuntn

    gohuntn Member

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    PA
    As of today, Dec. 26th I could go buy 10,427 antlerless licenses in the unit I hunt in here in PA. And I could legally shoot 10,427 does or button bucks myself until the end of Jan. Gotta love that Alt plan!
     
  11. Paul C

    Paul C New Member

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    If there are that many still available it means that they were not sold so the deer that "could" have been taken with them won't be---unless, of course, YOU buy them and USE them! The problem isn't Alt----its YOU and guys like you that feel if you buy the license you have to take a deer.
     
  12. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Justin, that was exceptional and obviously gave the wrong impression. MANY of us hunters DO understand good deer management.QDMA is NOT, going out and shooting all the does you can. Anyone saying that only proves how clueless they are abour QDMA. HOWEVER, all the game departments in this nation ARE being driven by hunters and politicians. It's inevitable that some deep pocketed twerp who contributes large sums to some pencil peckered politician, expects some returns for his contribution. One of them will negate 1000 of us and we never notice it. Here in Delaware, Sunday hunting is prohibited by one group: horse owners. The horse people cry to their paid lacky that they can't ride "safely" on public land if they allow Sunday hunting. For years, it was illegal to own a fox"regardless origin" because the duPonts didn't approve. So don't kid yourself.

    Paul, that was also a great post. How many of us hear complaints about someone else shooting "my deer"?
     
  13. ...and i thought this thread was going to be about philadelphia eagles beating themselves from the playoffs and the packers getting back in line....
     
  14. EA

    EA Well-Known Member

    gohuntn, There is evidently an over abundance of deer and deer/human conflicts in that area. Allegheny county (unit2b) has 14,146 left. There are areas that have way to many deer.. Drive through the Poconos in the evening, there are deer in every other yard it seems and they are not afraid of cars and barely shy from people.

    I have some videos of Alt crawling into bear dens WITH a mother looking on.
    -----------------------C/P-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Tim Carr is today a forester with the state Bureau of Forestry. In the winter of 1977-78, though, he was a 10-year-old tag-along.

    His brother Pat, who was studying wildlife management in college, was a volunteer technician tagging black bears under the guidance of Gary Alt, then the PGC's black bear biologist. Tim Carr accompanied Alt and his brother whenever he could.

    The work Alt was doing was groundbreaking stuff. He was crawling into bears dens - they average 18 inches in diameter - to drug mother bears, then pulling her and the cubs out to ear tag and radio collar them. No one had ever crawled into dens like that; no one knew if you could and avoid being mauled.

    Alt did it without hesitation. He would snake his way into a den armed with just a flashlight and a jab stick ( a pole equipped with a needle full of tranquilizer on the end) all while the "mother's woofing and her jaws are snapping," Carr recalls.

    "I was on a lot of trips where Gary would crawl in and the bear would walk out first, with Gary still in the den. That would leave all of the people on the outside standing around with their jaws on the ground, wondering what had happened to Gary. We'd stick our flashlights in there to see and he'd always be looking back out at us," Carr says. "The bear would literally have walked out right over top of him.

    "No one had ever done that before, but that was a daily thing for him. That was impressive."

    Such a willingness to take chances, and such a commitment to the resource he was studying, are what set Alt apart, says Carr. That same dedication will serve him well with deer, too.

    "He's not afraid to get in front of an audience and tackle an issue that's like gunpowder, where you put a match to it and pow! Because he knows what the right thing to do is, he has no problem telling an audience not necessarily what they want to hear, but what's right."
     
  15. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    I invited him to speak at our Wildlife Exposition right before he took on the PA deer. Just one helluva nice guy. He's just as good with a camera and he put on a slide show without equal.
     
  16. alts plan was and still is great, would have liked them to not change the 4 pts thing this yr, but i think wisconsin will thrive from those guys plans in the future
     
  17. franchi612

    franchi612 New Member

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    I'm sorry, but too many people are buying the DNRs hype that there are too many deer.15 years ago we had populations over 200 deer/sq mi. Now THAT was a problem, and no one wants to go back to that. We literally begged the DNR to give us doe tags, but they refused because there was too few deer! Deer were stunted, leading to a lack of antler growth. George, you should also get some newer numbers on 1 1/2 yo bucks. The number is much lower today, the numbers you quote are from 10 years ago. This is a common fallacy that DNR supporters use. Also the SAK which is severely outdated is based on 1 1/2 yos. I aged deer for the DNR for 8 years. The reason you don't get older bucks in the age data is most hunters refuse to have the jaws cut on trophy deer. Therefore those deer are never even aged, or are guessed. I also know of guys who aged bucks at 1 1/2 just by looking at their racks. Yet I have shot 2 1/2 yo bucks that wouldn't be legal under AR. SAK is ridiculously flawed. People also forget that four years ago we had a record severe winter with over 6 ft of snow and multiple ice storms. The DNR refused to admit deer were dying in southern WI due to starvation, even when we landowners offered to have them come out and see the carcasses. Where I live we have had buck to doe ratios of 5:1. That is not healthy. Best we have gotten down to is 3:1, but this year it jumped back up to about 5. Sorry, bucks don't have fawns! So it's hard to keep growing a deer population with fewer and fewer adult does, and fewer fawns thanks to all the predators. SO go ahead beleive the hype- you don't live here. I live here, and I know what the truth is!
     
  18. Jason S

    Jason S New Member

    Great post. The DNR got exactly what they wanted, Low deer herd numbers. When cwd was discoverd the slaughter was on. Many people shot deer after deer because they could. That in conjunction with wolves, and harsh winters in the north. Lower numbers of deer. I see very few deer now, but when I do see a buck it is usually a nice one. ;D But the task at hand for the new Czar is a difficult one to say the least. relatively small chunks of land owned by hunters, and non hunters throughout the state. makes managing the states deer herd difficult at best. And a job I would not want! Big big challenges ahead for them. I wish them luck.
    JS.
     
  19. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Franchi, Hudson's fairytale is exactly what the CURRENT FIGURES show. That bit about taking a doe first has led to pencil whipped tagging. It encourages illegal activities. You KNOW that Hudson or no one else is going to pass a 140+ deer. Your button buck supposition is just as flawed. 10-15% button buck d I'd acceptable since you are practising HERD MANAGEMENT. Button bucks eat just as much corn and soybeans as does. Now I'm sorry Wisconsin.sin hunters can't tell young bucks from does. Sounds like a few of them should be required to attend deer identification school.

    All I see here is exactlywhat I explained to Justin. Hard headed, greedy hunters ran Gary Alt out of PA. Fortunately his message stayed with enough responsible hunters to make a difference. If deer management were left to some people we'd decimate the resource.
     
  20. gohuntn

    gohuntn Member

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    PA
    I buy a single doe tag every year and have not shot a doe in over 10 years. Maybe the deer program is working in your part of the state. But if they sold 117,000 doe tags (yes that is NOT a typo) in your unit every year with a seven week long rifle doe season, you might have a different opinion of how the management program is working, after the herd has been decimated for you too.