1. Welcome to Taxidermy.net, Guest!
    We have put together a brief tutorial to help you with the site, click here to access it.

Things are looking up Wisconsin. Sorry about your luck Pennsylvania

Discussion in 'The Taxidermy Industry' started by George, Dec 26, 2011.

  1. EA

    EA Well-Known Member

    It is possible you guys just suck at hunting out that way and they figure to meet their kill goals they better quadruple the tags and give you 2mo. to get the job done.

    :D Just kidding, I know they didn't actually give you 2 mo. ;) Seriously, Who knows why they shoot so many out there. I do know Allegheny County offers 70,000 + tags and there are all kinds of deer down that way, but in a lot of it you have to bow hunt under the radar.. stealth mode.. ::)
  2. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Mike I was thinking the same thing.

    And Hudson, PULEEZE, I didn't just fall off the onion truck. In one breath you say they don't care if they shoot button bucks and then you try to tell me they'd pass a 140. RIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHTTTTTTTTTTT. And Midwestern DNR's are no different than those here - unless perhaps a bit slower to adapt. DNR's are being driven by HUNTERS and POLITICIANS. Sound biology often takes a back seat to those pressures. Tell an appointed bureaucrat that you're going to cut his pay if he doesn't do something and you'd better lock up the wife and kids. Almost 100 years ago, Aldo Leopold warned that sound conservation would always be threatened by those two entities. Nothing has ever come along to prove him wrong.

    gohuntn, I'm not doubting your number, but NO game department is going to capriciously offer that many tags without some supporting data unless it's still part of that silly assed CWD Scorched Earth policy.

  3. franchi612

    franchi612 New Member

    George- you have never had to deal with earn a buck. You are lucky to even SEE any kind of antlerless so you are forced to kill what you do see. I was forced to kill many deer I did not want to in the name of EAB. It was either kill a doe or nubby, or you don't kill a deer since you can't kill a buck! And I did pass one of the largest deer I have ever seen on stand one year. 14 pt 170+ at 20 yds broadside. I could never bring myself to poach such a beautiful animal, I could never be proud of it even though I had friends offer to double tag their doe so I could get an EAB sticker. And unless you have been here to take in gun season, you can not beleive the bloodlust. I turns my stomach. Too many people kill everything because "the DNR gives me a free tag". You say no DNR would give out that many doe tags without sound data? Every deer license in WI includes a free doe tag for use in herd reduction or cwd zones. 600k+ free doe tags in a state with a population of deer that reasonably is around 800-900k. The only reason more people aren't killed on public land is because there are no deer there!
  4. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    From the sounds of it, it sounds as if you desperately need these guys to look at your program. Good luck.
  5. livbucks

    livbucks Well-Known Member

    Alt knew his science, but all the while ignored the one who buttered the bread. Deer season was a big part of the economy in the Northern Tier and I can tell you that it is non existent now. The region where our camp is located is like a ghost town. The anter restrictions were the greastest thing IMO but the herd reduction measures were the ruination of the hunting tradition. I have now hunted two years of the opening two days of rifle and failed to see a single deer. You know something is wrong when it takes 4 hours on opening day to hear the first shot at any distance. Our party saw I believe 3 deer total in 2 years. The concurrent season was the killer. The people that just wanted to shoot ANY deer just switched over to fawns instead of forkhorns. After a few years there were no signs of deer anymore. What was left was eaten by coyotes and the miniscule fawn crop is devoured by bears. Very sad to see what was laid to waste in both the natural resource and human benefit. What could have been a good thing has been taken too far. This year the commission put an end to concurrent seasons up there. I guess they accomplished what they set out to do at last. Gary was run out on a rail for good reason. He threw the baby out along with the bathwater. He could have done a far better job. He is a biologist. He doesn't give a **** about hunters. Trust me. I supported his program. It wasn't ready to go prime time. It had things that were dead on and some that were flawed and we see that now. I invite you George to come to my camp on first day next year in the ANF. It would be great if we had snow. You can walk a two mile stretch of tram road and count on one hand the sets of tracks that cross said road. Oh yea...if you do see a deer it will probably be a big buck. I surely do love big bucks like anyone, but you will probably hunt the whole trip and not see a single deer of any sort. The decimation has been drilled just that deep. Nobody took our wolf hybrid coyotes and 20,000 black bears into the equation. They are sucking up what little is left of the deer. Gary Alt was so smart but he never thought of that little gem. Or DID he ??
  6. Joe Winsor

    Joe Winsor Active Member

    ...anyone consider that the rampant packs of nearly wolf sized coyotes might have anything to do with the lack of deer in PA???...at least the northern tier....and the lack of decent browse because perhaps that the N.F. lands haven't been logged since the Woolrich PA Tuxedo first came out???.....just saying...
  7. ANDY

    ANDY Well-Known Member

    That's the same issue here. They brag about killing 4 or 5 deer and about all of them are 50 pounder's. They keep complaining and keep
    shooting every deer that walk's past.
  8. justin_b

    justin_b Just sayin...

    Definitely one of the largest issues! Free tags don't do the DNR any good if people won't shoot the deer, unfortunately, there's too many around this state that HAVE to fill every tag. Then they run off and donate 3 or 4 to the food pantry program.

    I'd like to see them for one, raise the HELL out of the non-resident tags. I'm about tired of seeing our public land lined with trucks with MN and IL plates. They get the same free and $2.00 tags as residents. Talk about a bunch of CRAP. I don't expect to go to another state for this low of a cost, and we shouldn't be either.

    I just hope the new system will help to stop antlerless slaying, and impose some antler restrictions.
  9. Maybe when WI is done with Dr. Deer, Minnesota can hire him - if we have any deer left by then. I think we are about 3 years behind WI in the drop in deer numbers. 5 years ago we had too many deer, now we have went too far the other direction. Yet the area I hunt is still in intensive harvest and you can shoot 5 does.

  10. Jason S

    Jason S New Member

    [quote author=Jason O
    just remember it all comes down to politics ,insurance companys .


  11. livbucks

    livbucks Well-Known Member

    Actually, a mature doe will bear and raise the highest number of fawns per year. 3 is common.
  12. I never put much stock in that "old barren doe" theory. I don't think they live long enough in the wild to get to the age where they might not be physically able to reproduce. If they don't have fawns with them it is more likely that the fawns were car/coyote/wolf/bear killed.

  13. franchi612

    franchi612 New Member


    Sorry but I have lived on this farm since I was born. I shot my first deer 25 years ago with a bow, hunting by myself. I consider myself an above average hunter. I live in the heart of farm country. By the DNRs own numbers this area can sustain 50 deer/ sq mi. Our goal is 25. We are at or below that goal now. I have about 2000 trail cam pix throughout the year. I know every deer when I see it, most by name lol. I know when our neighbors shoot one which one it is. If you are seeing deer that is great, but you can't speak for an entire state. My experience is typical for the unit I hunt. I also work in the cwd zone and hear constantly the complaints of hunters there. The only people who see deer are the areas that are leased out for trophy hunts, or the areas where people shut their land down due to their hate of the DNR. The DNR proved this with their winter flyovers, that there are vast areas in the cwd zone that are 100% devoid of deer. We only have deer on our property now because we have 5 acres of standing corn. We have about 10 deer using our field. Those 10 deer are the majority of the deer for a square mile. I see deer everytime I hunt, but they are those exact same deer. By my sightings a person would think we have a ton of deer. But if they are the same deer every time, and those deer don't normally spend the year here, then we don't really have many deer at all. This is why field observations need to be taken with a grain of salt. If I were to add up the deer I have seen since gun closed, it would seem like an awful lot too. But they are they exact same deer every night.

    George- I fail to see how it will help WI to have a program of AR and doe killing, or how these guys are going to save us. I have little respect for Dr Kroll when he needs to put down other products to sell his own, and is a proponent of AR but also beleives in culling. A deer has the same genetics from the day it's born to the day it dies, so how can you approve of culling deer for poor genetics, but AR to save bucks? Depends on who is signing your paycheck!!! There is a serious problem with public land management in this state. Until someone gets the balls to limit the amount of hunters on public, and ban practices like drives, there will always be problems. We have three state tree nurseries, yet when is the last time any trees were planted on the wastelands that are public hunting grounds? So I'm sorry but until any of these so called deer experts prove to me they are going to improve basic problems such as habitat management, working with private landowners, and predator management instead of shoving more regs like AR down our throats...I will question their actions, and constinue to distrust the DNR.
  14. livbucks

    livbucks Well-Known Member

    7 or 8 is prime age. Not only will she bear the most young, but will be smarter and her recruitment success for raising those fawns to breeding age will be higher. You guys think that shooting does and letting the little bucks walk is gonna get you to big buck paradise, but it will not. The casual hunter that just wants to kill any deer will switch over to fawns and your population will crash in a few years time. Yes...there will be big bucks for a period of time, but it cannot be sustained. You will reach a point where there are just no deer. If you have any kind of coyote predation and bear predation on the fawn crop, you are in for real trouble if you go down this path. Hunters will kill all the button bucks as "does". First deer they see is getting whacked. First deer is the dumb button buck. You want the antler restrictions but do not fall for the carrot of herd reduction. It goes too far.
  15. franchi612

    franchi612 New Member

    Does have been proven to have fawns at 10 years of age. I have no problem killing does if the population can sustain it. I would never shoot a buck under 3 1/2 if we had does to shoot for meat. You also can't say a doe is dry if the fawns aren't with her. Bucks will chase off fawns when chasing does, and does will kick their fawns away when they come into heat. If you have ever watched a doe when she is just coming into heat, she can be a b*tch. I think they get pms lol. I ave also seen does that just seem downright mean and chase other deer off just because. We used to have one we called meanie becuase she even beat on her own fawn all the time. Those old does are tough as heck. Worst deer I have eaten in recent memory was a 6 yo doe my Dad killed about 5 years ago. Like show leather. My husband shot a 6 1/2 yo buck this year and it is crazy how good it is.
  16. livbucks

    livbucks Well-Known Member

    I agree that numbers WERE too high in PA as well. We now have the other extreme in the Northern Tier. Very few in many areas.
  17. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Franchi, I hate to break this to you but it's the mature DOES that run off the young button bucks. It's a biological mechanism to reduce the possiblity of interbreeding. Usually buck fawns are banished by mid-September.

    Jason, you really DON'T know what QDMA is about, do you? The constant references to shooting does is proof that you don't. QDMA is NOT about shooting does, though that's just ONE viable step to good management. QDMA is based on sound biology and science. The first part of that is to conduct valid population surveys. Then comes fawn "recruitment"to see how many actually make it through their first year. Antler restrictions are used when there's not enough common sense being used by hunters when harvesting deer. QDMA is NOT intended to mandate or regulate,but to EDUCATE the hunter so that he or she can take actions and expect specific results. The plan is based on specific geographic regions within an area. If you have a low deer census, QDMA advocates shutting down an area at worst, but apply restrictions at best.
  18. timwilly

    timwilly I lost my agenda !!!

    Alt can be a nice guy, he may know bears.....but as far as turning things around in wisconsin I think your in trouble. He couldn't turn around a car.

    He was ousted from PA because he worked for the "Money", I doubt very much that he really even cared what the average hunter thought.
    You'll have your opinions and I'll have mine, in ten years you won't be able to find a deer in ten counties that had a huntable population before. We'll talk then.

    As far as Antler Restrictions and big buck: I don't get bigger buck in my shop than I did before antler restrictions and the amount brought in hasn't went up.
    I think it will show in time, right now it's not proven.

    The guy that was talking about ten thousand tags left over in his area is in the city. (pittsburgh area) It's restricted to archery and shotgun and very few places to hunt.
    They have zillions of tags left over every year, so they make the quota higher to cover it.

    I say sorry about your luck Wisconsin and PA is better off.
  19. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Tim, you're allowing personal opinions interfere with facts. Big money is EXACTLY what ran him off. Everyone knows the the pressures put on the governor by the PA Sportsman Association was the ONLY reason for his ouster.I doubt you're going to find a handful of people outside that coffee klatch who'll agree with anything you said there. And remember, Dr. Kroll is the lead here. HE chose Gary Alt because of his track record.
  20. Paul C

    Paul C New Member

    WOW....timwilly, I thought you were smarter than that. First of all, you know NOTHING about why Gary Alt left PA....that is obvious.

    Secondly, for you to say that there are no more "big" bucks taken now than before AR is also a big booboo. You "might" find a few USP brainwashed hunters (and maybe even a few taxidermists) to agree with you but, I assure you, the VAST majority of hunters and taxidermists in PA KNOW that more "BIG" bucks are being taken in PA now than EVER before. The last scoring sessions proved it----and most people don't even get their deer scored! Don't know how long you've been in business or what class of clientel you have but after 30 years in this business I can honestly say I have NEVER seen as many trophy PA deer as I'm seeing now.