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Things are looking up Wisconsin. Sorry about your luck Pennsylvania

Discussion in 'The Taxidermy Industry' started by George, Dec 26, 2011.

  1. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Franchi looking at trailcam pictures is hardly "biological research". When was the last 3 infrared aerial surveys conducted? What wad the buck/doe ratio in those photos? What is your fawn recruitment? What is the date of conception of the majority of does? Are does being bred by single or multiple bucks? What is the average age of your harvested deer? How is data on hemmorhagic fever taken and maintained? Do you really want me to go on???
     
  2. EA

    EA Well-Known Member

    Some comments remind me of the things I hear fisherman say. We have a couple lakes around here some refer to as the Dead Seas. Yet I can go there and catch fish because I don't get hung up on on history. I'm not going to hang out to dry in the same old spot because I caught my biggest fish there 3 yrs ago. Conditions change, homes get built, woods get logged, crops get rotated and so on. Too many people get in a habit of hunting "traditional" areas and figure "They should be here". If they have fizzled, Find new areas. Somebody is seeing too many to name and because you loaded the boat in that spot last year don't mean squat.
     

  3. livbucks

    livbucks Well-Known Member

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    I could just sit in my driveway and stab them with a spear if I wanted to. It's a hotspot.

    BTW EA....don't ya just love taking the flinter out? I am gonna go on Saturday. Betsy has been sittin all year and is getting antsy. Just something about it.
     
  4. EA

    EA Well-Known Member

    Kids bought me one 2 yrs ago for Christmas. So far I have missed twice :D Last year a nice buck actually gave me a second shot !! It just stood there looking while I reloaded like a madman...Then "Click".... In my rush I forgot the pan powder :D off it trotted. It's a blast, love it. Good Luck with Betsy.
     
  5. franchi612

    franchi612 New Member

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    Our state does not use IR imaging. They rely on the old fashioned and outdated population models. If trailcams aren't a tool to guage population and age structure, then why do private ranches use them for that purpose? I have thousands of pictures in a year. Best week ever was over 600 pix. That is one single pic, one minute intervals. So I'm sorry but I do feel that trailcams are a good tool for gauging local populations. Our buck to doe ratio is about 4:1. But I suppose you won't beleive that because trailcams and field observation are not proper research tools. Our does are for the most part bred between Oct 31 and Nov 5th. Not hard to track when you only have one or two. Average age of harvested bucks is 4 1/2. We do NOT harvest does and fawns. Someday hopefully, but not right now. The only disease I need to worry about is cwd, and quite frankly I could care less if I saw a suspected positive. Disease is part of nature. Only man wants to control them. So George where is you degree in wildlife management from again? Funny how when a person keep making sound arguments detractors have to resort to saying a person must be a bad hunter if they don't see deer. hey George, I gas my birds too why don't you tell me how wrong I am about that too.
     
  6. livbucks

    livbucks Well-Known Member

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    EA....I have passed on more does and fawns with my flinter than you could shake a stick at. They must know I want to take a buck with mine. I once had a really nice 8 point walk right to me at 20 yards one year. Too bad my pan and frizzen was soaked from the rain and I was actually leaving the woods. I just laughed at the irony that day. I once chased a big buck for something like six hours one very snowy day. He would double back at keep making the same loops all day. Every trick I tried he would foil my plan. We played cat and mouse all day and I think it snowed a foot that day. One of the best days I ever spent in the woods. I really get lost in it with the flinter if the weather and mood are just right.
     
  7. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Franchi, I'm no RDA. My education doesn't require flaunting and its unlikely the schools I attended would change your thought processes. Thank God you're in an ever increasing minority.
     
  8. John Panter

    John Panter New Member

    Maybe Wisconsisn should have hired George.
     
  9. franchi612

    franchi612 New Member

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    In the minority on what George? Wanted a balanced deer herd that is within the biological carrying capacity, and sociologically accepted? Or wanting public lands that are not vast wastelands of monotypical grass? If I'm in the minority then why did legislators listen to my minority and do away with earn a buck? How was our governor elected by sportsman because he promised to permanently end earn a buck? I'm sorry George but you don't know anything firsthand about what is going on in this state. You don't see me telling you how your state should run it's deer management do you? Nor would I because I have never deer hunted there, nor owned land there, nor pay property taxes there.
     
  10. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Touche' franchi. But I wish you would. We have a green "biologist" who's experience with whitetails comes from that bastion of wildlife management and whitetail science, the UNIVERSITY OF DELAWARE. With all the great grads you have out of Penn State, we get stuck with a local wannabe. We did all those things I described here in Delaware and guess what: the information was deemed "unnecessary". This from the same guy who stood up at a national convention telling game managers that deer browsing soybeans actually helped the plant grow.
     
  11. livbucks

    livbucks Well-Known Member

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    And we are back at destroying the village in order to save it.
     
  12. EA

    EA Well-Known Member

    Greg, What part of the north do you guys hunt ? My camp is in Elk County, just out of Ridgway. We hunt multiple areas depending what we have come across during the year.. I remember sitting on a pipeline 12 or 13 yrs. old and seeing over 250 deer on the first day. Could have been some of the same circling, who knows.. In all those deer, I couldn't pick out one Buck..Thats the way it was back then. Lots of fun, but if you got an 8pt they wrote songs about you. :D

    Soon after the changes my son and I sat from sun up to sun down and saw 2 doe, looong day. BUT there was a good bit of shooting in the next hollow over.. For several years, Deer were tough to see, but we got a few anyway. Some real nice ones too.

    They have made some adjustments and last year we went up in Feb to coyote hunt. We saw 40 on the first day just driving down the road. The next day we drove through a hollow that was loaded with deer. They were running everywhere in the laurel and it was hard to tell just how many were there, but it looked like the old days. :).I think they bounce back pretty quick, but thats just my opinion.

    We are planning a couple coyote trips now. I think all of us who hunt or have camps up that way should go try to kill a few just for GP.
     
  13. msestak

    msestak Well-Known Member

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    EA...i hunted SGL 44 outside of ridgway 3 years ago during bear season. my son who was 15 at the time got a decent 200 pounder which helped him get the PA triple trophy.

    anyway, with all the snow on the ground we saw 4 sets of coyote tracks, 1 set of deer tracks and 1 bear ;D

    we hunted on the hill side behind the rifle range across from belmouth run.

    years ago it was nothing to see herds of 20 or more deer running those hill sides at a time, now....nothing, what a shame. i personally think its time to stop the herd reduction program.
     
  14. livbucks

    livbucks Well-Known Member

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    Oh I agree. We are in Highland Township. When I was a kid, we drove out and hunted near the Scenic Circle....the Big Ridges. I scoped a hundred deer a day back then. Saw lots of spikes that weren't even legal. Terrible tasting deer back then. Absolutely no understory. I swear they lived off of the moss and ferns. My Dad and me both got forkhorns when I was 14 or so. They wrote songs about us in Kane, LOL! Yes, lots of changes. I have hunted the last two years of the opening two days at camp and seen ZERO deer. Back in '07 I got a 100 inch 8 point and my brother got a 140 inch 10. The year before that my Dad got a 130 inch 10 point. I know there has been some big bucks taken around the farms in the area but the National Forest land is pretty barren the last few years. We benefitted from the program for a period but it has run it's course and the low point is now. I was very happy to see the end of the concurrent season during the first week of rifle up there. In the summer we have seen many fawn kills from coyotes and bears. The bears are crazy around there in the summer. The reduction went a bit too deep and fawn predation mortality really adds up now. I think a few years of not having concurrent seasons will help them rebound. The area has been logged heavily in the last decade but the deer just are not there. A compromise will go a long way. Sounds like you had some yarding going on in the laurel. We have no laurel where we are. Nothing but cherry and hemlock...and glacier rock. The regeneration is all beech. Terrible habitat and undesireable for timber. The foresters came in and slashed off all the beech this year. The deer are gone and yet the forest still will not regenerate the way they want it to. I am tired of saying it but clearcutting is the only way to go. They did that fancy new age way of logging and the forest is useless. No deer and no regeneration of target species. Gotta wonder why we give praise to college degrees. Their thinking just aint right and yet they are still so arrogant as to belittle the "yokles" that know how things should be done. When that area was clearcut a hundred years ago, it generated the billions of dollars of lumber that we have, and produced a deer density that made an economy in itself due to the hunting camps and the hunter's dollars. When I was a young lad and before that, the area up there was like the fishing boats came into port and the sailors were all in town spending their wad. It is all gone except for a few diehards like us. We could have had decent bucks and decent deer numbers. The foresters had too much power and the hunter was the loser. And yet the cherry still isn't growing. Destroy the village to save it....YEA!
     
  15. pdmd2911

    pdmd2911 Member

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    George, you're right on the money here. I quit hunting years ago here in WI. When you turn 700,000 hunters loose in the woods at the same time, you can't expect a quality hunting experience. Every year for decades I've watched deer running around on opening day, by 10:00 am the deer are all in hiding and you can take up knitting for the rest of the 9 day season. Everyone hunter complains, yet no one wants any changes to the traditional hunt. Regardless of what Dr. Kroll and his colleges come up with, the hunters will hate it. And they wonder why hunting in our state are on the decline!
     
  16. justin_b

    justin_b Just sayin...

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    Nice try, but you are flat wrong. I agree that there are plenty of if it's brown it's down weekend warriors in this state, but there are plenty who aren't also. Why do you think private land is locked up so tight in WI these days? It's because most all serious hunters have had enough, and we've been managing our lands like we see fit. Maybe where you hunt after 10:00 AM they are all laying a thicket shaking like Mike Tyson in a spelling bee...but that's not the case where I hunt. I hunt my own land, and I keep the pressure to a minimum. I shot a 10 point with just over a 19" inside spread this year, on the 6th day of the season. He was walking through a tag alder swamp that I hunt grunting and following a doe. EVERY deer that was not mature, was let go, and we shot at least one doe (closer to two) for each buck shot.

    This is the whole argument that's going on....many of us aren't just upset with the DNR, we're upset with the guys that talk out of both sides of their mouth. They are running down the DNR for the lack of deer around, when in the next sentence they talk about the NEED to go out and fill all of the cheap doe tags that they bought.

    The only way things will improve is with a new management plan. I for one can't wait for something to be done...any change is better than what we have now. The antler restrictions would be a HUGE step in the right direction, and I am really looking forward to seeing what is put in place in the years to come.

    Bottom line, deer are easy to manage, hunters are not. This plan is going to have to manage the hunter as much as the deer, and then they are somehow going to have to find a balance in the plan which will obviously have input from foresters, farmers, hunters, and so on. It's not going to be easy, but it definitely can improve..ESPECIALLY on the public land! I hope guys don't expect it to be a cure all and everyone will be shooting a 150" buck each year, because no matter what anyone thinks, no matter how many of them are in the area you hunt, they still aren't going to fall in your lap year in and year out. It might even involve some of these weekend warriors getting out of the truck or off the 4 wheeler to go deer hunt (**GASP**). If they implement a plan to re-establish deer where they're wiped out, and then impose antler restrictions to keep the average moron from shooting every forkhorn they see, then I don't see how things CAN'T improve.
     
  17. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Justin, you've bounced around like a BB in an empty boxcar. First you say that state management sucks and then you say you hunt on private land where "you manage as you see fit". If all the private land is 'locked up", are you saying that Wisconsin has more public than private land ? And if you're hunting private land and doing such a spectacular job of it, I don't see where you have a dog in the fight or how the state of Wisconsin could have any effect on the herd that you "manage". You're simply proving exactly what I've said about overzealous hunters demanding game management "as they see fit" and not using biological data and research. You're advocating new research but then ridicule your state contracting 3 of the very best whitetail biologists available. Which is it?
     
  18. RDA

    RDA Well-Known Member

    da BLOWHOLE aka george Woof- be full of shyt, nothing to see here folks......
     
  19. pdmd2911

    pdmd2911 Member

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    Justin, you're right on about pressure, I understand and preach that, but it takes a lot of land to do that and not feel the effects of your neighbors pushing every square inch of woods. Try telling your country neighbors how to properly hunt deer. So far, after 10 years of trying, I have not had much luck.

    What it will take to fix the WI firearms hunt, the hunters most likely will not accept. The DNR offered gun hunters the last week of rut and they overwhelmingly rejected it. I can understand the bowhunters point of view, but it sure would be nice to have a few days at the end of the rut during the chase phase with a rifle in your hands.

    By our rifle season start, the rut is over, the bucks are back to nocturnal and only a few hunters still drive deer. Even though the driving pressure isn't what it used to be, there are still so many hunters in the woods that the deer simply go into a hiding mode. Our gun season has essentially become a doe hunt, since we don't shoot young bucks and our mature bucks are highly nocturnal.

    The hunters themselves are a big part of the problem.
     
  20. justin_b

    justin_b Just sayin...

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    Where did I ridicule the state for contracting these three?? And to clarify, Walker is the main reason these three are coming here in the first place, not the DNR.

    My issue IS with public land. There is a lot of it, and it could have been managed better by a group of third graders up to this point. Is there something wrong with me wanting to see the public land in this state benefit from a better management program? What I'm trying to tell you, is that people practicing QDMA are having great seaosns year in and year out, but the guys on public land are not. I like (or used to like I should say) hunting public land, but at this point it's a waste of time unless your after predators.

    Next time you read some posts, try to read them slower and actually take in what's being written. There seems to be a disconnect between what your eyes are seeing and what your brain is comprehending.