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Discussion in 'For Sale' started by mjvaden, Dec 29, 2011.
Well said Harold! Thanks for adding your voice
I've been following this thread for a while and just have to chime in. First, that's a beautiful animal and I wish you luck in your sale.
In response to Harold's comments, is there any evidence that the floppy ears and other abnormalities seen in the Russian fox breeding experiments were linked to the mutations that lead to tameness (that is is tameness an alteration of some developmental pathway that keeps the animals more juvenile, or is a tameness gene located near a gene involved in ear standing) or is it simply a matter of the human researchers evaluating animals with "cute" features as more tame? Second, how much of the problems associated with color variations in domestic and captivity bread animals is due to the gene in question resulting in unintended consequences or being closely linked to a second detrimental mutation (as is the case with albinos and the merle and piebald alleles in some breeds), and how much is due to massive inbreeding coefficients unmasking other unlinked mutations (and thus could be avoided with better practices). And third, I'd just like to point out that this coyote was caught on the east cost, a region only very recently colonized by coyotes, and that what was adaptive in their previous habitats might not be in this new one. The selection pressures might be completely different in this new habitat and we may see a different set of color morphs favored over time there than we see in their more traditional habitats. Just because it is different doesn't mean that it is maladaptive, especially when colonizing a new habitat. Odds are that you're right and that an animal that color would have died prematurely, but if red foxes can survive with their coat coloration it doesn't seem absurd to me to think that this guy's color could make it in the wild.
I'm pretty sure the foxes were selected solely for behavioral traits. "Pretty sure" because you never know, but the research indicates they were only looking at behavior and everything else was a byproduct. If you are interested, here is a website about the history of the project. It's really fascinating!!
Good point, and I wonder this myself. Many of the coat colors you described are recessive and if we are exploiting recessive coat genes, what other recessive, and deleterious, traits are we bringing out by accident? That aren't necessarily linked to coat color?
VERY good point. Not to mention the kind of urbanization coyotes are starting and how that might be more contingent on behavioral selection and therefore bring about "unintended" coat color variations. I wonder if there is any work looking at that in urban yotes! Could hire some of these expert trappers to trap, and then document coat coloration, mark, and release, and see where the variation starts to skew.
I want to study urban coyotes so bad!! Someday!
Here is a short history of the Russian Fox Experiment:
There are a group of external features that go "hand-in-hand" with a group of genes that show their effects during the domestication of animals, floppy ears, coat color (spotting) and texture, etc. There are many good articles on line concerning this if you google "domestication traits, mammals". These specific changes occur in conjunction usually as domestication of the species, or part of it, occurs.
The inbreeding concentrates bad characteristics; THE gene for coat color is not the problem, but the associated suite of genes that follow it that particular gene result in the major abnormalities these inbred and poorly bred animals suffer from. That is my opinion.
That is a good point, but for the recorded history I have read, red foxes have been red across their range. It is always possible that changes could be occurring that would make a red, blond, or white coyote the dominant color in a specific region or across its range. Only time will tell what genetics and evolution have in store for any species, including humans.
The eyes & coat on this dog are amazing!
Someone needs to buy this dog live and breed it!
Esa this pup has been dead for a while. Mike is selling it for a mount.
Thanks ShadowWulf, i re-read the comments and realized that this pup was in the freezer for quite a while!
Either way, this is a gorgeous creature and it will make an AMAZING mount!
No problem, and indeed it will have a good new year as well!
Hey buddy, BEAUTIFUL animal! And some great references for the lucky buyer!
has the coyote been bought?
is it still alive?
i am a prospective buyer if not, but by all means would encourage the perpetuation of this beautiful specimen's life and genes.
Geez where did the bunny huggers all come from. "You should breed him." WHAT A CROCK OF CRAP. Just what the world needs- us "purifying" one of Nature's most resilient predators.
Like Jerry Closer once said about the HSUS complaining about how snakes were being killed at the Rattlesnake Roundup, "How do you kill a snake BAD?" Thanks for taking that oneself out of the gene pool Michael.
I think the idea was along the line of foxes. Coyotes can also be a worthy furbearer of some value. Though they certainly would take up more pen space and food than foxes. Foxes are bred now in a bajillion colors it seems. They started somewhere. I think the gist was was it plausible to do this with coyotes if you had some nice colored stock to start with? If not for the fur trade, rare colored yotes would always have a value to an accomplished taxidermist or collector. Foxes are a predator too and I know several people that hate them with a passion. But those platinum fancy ones are worth big bucks. I think people were wondering if fancy colored and poofy coyotes could be produced in a few generations. I have an incredibly poofy coyote hide bought from a trapper but it is normal colored. If you could combine the poof quality with some rare colors, could coyotes in captivity be made to be valuable?
Skunk spray .. if you had READ the posts on the thread, you would have seen that it is long dead and in the freezer already.
Sea Wolf, I've always found your comments to be educated and inciteful. Now I KNOW that YOU KNOW that the coyote has never been a species found to be useful as far as commercial fur producing simply because the breed doesn't play well in captivity. The brush wolf is on the high end of the canid family tree, and like the dingo, does not habituate. The fur of the coyote has always been in limited demand because of the grizzled appearance and the coarseness of the hair. UNLIKE FOXES, coyotes transition frighteningly well with urbanization. UNLIKE FOXES, their size allows the to target and kill lager animals. A doe can actually fend off a fox attacking her fawn but a coyote will kill her AND her fawn simply for the fun of it. That little trait and that by itself is a great reason why so many of us hate this vermin.
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Coyotes are not native in Florida or most or all of Georgia and other parts of the south. They got established in my area by escapees from fox pens where hunters trained their deer dogs. Florida has outlawed the fox pens because of this. We have a lot of blacks ones in my area but the fur is thin because of the hotter climate. I see variations in color too not exactly like that one but not the usual colors.they are open game here and shot on sight but the woods are thick here and you don't see them much. Im not sure but I believe they can cross breed with dogs and red wolves. They have only been seen in Florida for 15-20 years and were moving through Georgia coming south before that.
Yup Bubba z you are right, coyotes have been known to breed with red wolves (one of the reasons that the red wolf reintroductions in the southern states have been so unsuccessful, they are just breeding with the coyotes in the area, making the red wolf genes thin out way to much to be called wolves anymore). They also breed with dogs. However, the problem is the "hybridization" between coyotes and dogs. If some one allows their male dog to breed with a female coyote, the pups have an extremely thin chance of surviving. Female coyotes have help with their pups from the males. However, when a male dog breeds a female yote, then the male goes back home, and the female is left with out a mate, forcing her to find food on her own for her litter. However when a male yote breeds to a female dog, then the pups have a higher chance of surviving in a home, but then they go back to their wild instincts, most likely causing them to go to a shelter, or be euthanized. Either way, dogs and coyotes should never mix, it is more of a sad story than a happy one when they do. However, their are exceptions i suppose, but they are few and far in between.
Oh and George R, I have never seen an animal kill some thing "for the fun of it" unless its a dog or a cat, however, I will not say you are wrong, because I am sure that you have seen it, and you have way more experience with hunting/taxidermy than I do. And I will agree with you, the "purification" of coyotes is not a good idea. We have pets for a reason, we don't need to make our wild animals more domesticated, or our domesticated animals wild (ie wolf hybrids, coydogs, ect)
I don't think the country needs anyone raising coyotes.
With all due respect, I highly doubt that Fla and GA got coyotes due to escapees. Coyotes, like other highly intelligent mammals, expands rapidly and easily where theres a need...and feed. Add raccoons, rats and deer to that list.
I know for a fact as never had coyotes here when I was a kid and when I was in high school I told somebody I saw one and they didn't believe me . It took me a while but I killed one to prove it and now they are widespread. I remember when my buddies in south Georgia first started seeing them in the late 80s and within 5 years they slowly trickled down my way. Come on Bill I'm not making this up as I go . Lol they got established by a combination of moving southward and by escaping fox pens.
Mr. Yox - I don't know about GA and FL, but I know for a fact that they established themselves in NC due to the running pens. How else do you explain the fact that the first documented population was in Johnston County, dead center of the state? Did they parachute in? It is also a documented fact that in the late 80's a tractor trailer was stopped on I-40 eastbound just inside the state of North Carolina and was loaded with live coyotes caught in Texas (From what I have heard, it was over 300 yotes).
Destination: Running Pen.