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USFW allows 2 eagles to be killed

Discussion in 'Bird Taxidermy' started by txoutdoors, Mar 15, 2012.

  1. Very true Matt, glad we could keep it civil. I can see where I could have not been careful enough or PC with my initial comment and lead you to those conclusions. My apologies as well.
    As far as the ruling goes I would hope they could limit the off reservation rights to within all or at least most state fish and game laws. For example they can't just kill a wolf, so with that logic to protect the resources for both of us if we give them free licenses then I believe they have been given the right to hunt and fish off the reservation. Maybe a perk or two could be tweaked but I don't believe in methods that don't allow selective harvest and also damage, injure, and kill fish and game that get away and can't then be consumed. For example walleye spearing and gill netting. I have personally caught a slot walleye (25") on Mille Lacs that had a spear hole in it during late may. Don't know how recently it had been speared or if it survived but when white man came they did not have metal spears, boats and motors, guns, or gill nets. So that's my main concern as to the method of harvest off the reservation. Not that they shouldn't use guns, but within season ext...

    As far as your last paragraph goes. If you haven't seen it I really think you would enjoy an episode of Stossel where he shows a study about the effect of government help actually hurting many groups of people especially minorities. They did a big bit on the reservations and it turns out statistically not one reservation deviates from on common statistic. The more government help and aid, the more problems. There is one that could not get officially recognized and now could but over half the members are against it as they have an average income well above most suburban white communities and most are very successful. Their fear, and rightly so, is if they put their faith into someone else helping them and reach for handouts they will end up like any other reservation. If your interested I can look for the title of the episode and I'm sure it is available online.

    About that beer, are you going to the Mn show?
     
  2. Mac67

    Mac67 New Member

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    I would. There is no reason why non endangered raptors can't be managed the same as other "game" predators. DDT been gone a looong time.
    [/quote]

    First you'd need to remove eagles from the protection of the Migratory Bird Treaty Act...and then repeal the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act.

    Just because there may be 'plenty' of a species NOW, it doesn't mean you can automatically remove all protections - not when that species enjoys the popularity that the bald eagle does, especially as a national symbol. And despite the protection that exists for both eagles and other raptors, they're still animals that many people would like to see eliminated, i.e. people with game farms, pet birds, domestic ducks, etc. They're also animals susceptible to deaths by lead poisoning, oil pits, car and aircraft kills, power line strikes, and now wind turbines. I think there's quite a bit of "management" already.
     

  3. First you'd need to remove eagles from the protection of the Migratory Bird Treaty Act...and then repeal the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act.
    GOOD IDEA

    Just because there may be 'plenty' of a species NOW, it doesn't mean you can automatically remove all protections - not when that species enjoys the popularity that the bald eagle does, especially as a national symbol. And despite the protection that exists for both eagles and other raptors, they're still animals that many people would like to see eliminated, i.e. people with game farms, pet birds, domestic ducks, etc. They're also animals susceptible to deaths by lead poisoning, oil pits, car and aircraft kills, power line strikes, and now wind turbines. I think there's quite a bit of "management" already.
    [/quote]

    REEEEAAAALY??? You think protection is and should be a popularity contest!
    Go join PETA and save the koalas. Everybody loves them.
    All animals are imperiled by all the things you listed...so protect them all?
     
  4. Gameover, yeah that definitely sounds interesting. Shoot me a message with the title if you find it. I'm definitely going down to the show even if it's just to get a membership, walk around, and catch a seminar or two one of the days. Hopefully I can get something put together and enjoy the show in it's entirety. It'd be great to meet up for a beer or two...I got the first round!
     
  5. Wouter

    Wouter Member

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    Hey Bullwhip, if I where an American bird taxidermist and collector I would be immensely frustrated by those rediculous bird laws of yours, that limits you to mount the same boring turkeys, grouse, ducks and geese over and over again, and force you to pass on all kinds of interesting other birds that are all mortal and will die eventually. However, do you really think it would be wise to allow shooting all kinds of birds that are not really endangered? I think it will be better for the US to adopt the laws of Canada or my home country Holland, that do not allow killing non-huntable birds, but do allow mounting them if they die naturally or accidentally. That would get you to mount anything but you'll just have to wait untill it comes along ;).
    I can assure you that Dutch taxidermists do get a very satisfactory and non-boring variety of birds to mount without having to kill anything. If we in Holland would start killing non-edible birds just to mount them, us taxidermists woule have a huge public relations problem :eek:. This is probably a cultural difference between the US and Holland. For exzmple, in my country a taxidermist would be tarred and feathered for killing a healthy pen-raised bird to mount it, which seems to be rather normal in the US (but that's a whole other discussion :-X).

    Wouter
     
  6. So you think emotion should be factored in with proven science? That's a very scary view of wildlife management Mac.

    It's that mentality that has created a whole slew of problems. Wolf delisting springs to mind. There was a management goal in place that needed to be reached for delisting. It was reached, and then reached again, to where it's now over double the original goal in the great lake states after being held up in court routinely by animal rights activists.

    Our system of wildlife management has been admired and copied the world over. It is a system based on science managed by people who spend years studying it to get degrees to be able to do it. It's a great system...except for when decisions are taken out of their hands through politics or people driven by emotion who think they know better. It'd kind of be like going to your mechanic to get your prostate checked. Leave the decisions to the people who are trained to make them.

    Getting back to the wolf, all that those animal rights activists did was reduce the animal they supposedly cared for to vermin despised almost universally. The trained professionals weren't allowed to put a nuisance wolf down even if it was killing livestock, or dragging off someone's pet in front of them. They weren't able to manage them in accordance with other species. Guys who don't even have a speeding ticket on their record started shooting them out of frustration. What should be an iconic animal is hated instead of admired.

    Had the delisting occurred as planned there'd be a healthier population living within their desired range. A limited hunt would have certainly resulted with fewer wolves shot and made them without a doubt the most desired trophy animal in the region. Ranchers, farmers and the people who actually live with them in their backyard and have to deal with would tolerate them, maybe even like them, once they didn't have to worry about watching their lab being ripped apart and not being able to do anything about.

    But a bunch of whackos didn't want that to occur because they saw a picture of one on a postcard once and they thought it was cute. Their actions resulted in people shooting them indiscriminately and leaving them where they dropped to rot, because they weren't given any legal way to manage a population that became out-of-control...and so far past a goal of bringing them back from decimation to a healthy level it was absurd. The whackos destroyed the image of the animal for generations to the people in wolf country who they need on their side to protect them.

    That's what happens when emotion is allowed into the management process. Plenty of other examples I can continue my rant on...polar bears...mountain lions...black bears...cormorants...grizzly bears....
     
  7. Your way as well as Canada's would be an improvement....but never going to happen here.
    A a former resident of the great state of Kentucky, I have relatives that would argue that "All birds are edible, or the wouldn't be made of meat".
    But alas that is not the point...snakes feed on the same prey as raptors, but are afforded little protection. I see no difference at all. One group of animals does not deserve any more protection than another based solely on anthropomorphic views. Count them up, protect the lands that they use, and there will always be enough.
    Destroy the habitat, protect the animal, and they disappear anyway.
    My signature says it all.
     
  8. Great point on the wolves, and other poorly managed predators (especially the cormorants!) And why are Seagulls protected I bet we have more here in the summer than Geese?

    As for eagles they are easily well past the level of being endangered but yet they do have low enough numbers and are susceptible to enough to be in need of protection. They should actually really do an in depth look at the numbers and see if any sort of management is necessary, I'm no scientist or and don't have the numbers to say either way any sort of conclusion but emotion should be removed from the table and replaced with fact. From experience I do see them all the time though they are a bird and they do eat road kill so there is no telling how far they flew to get there.

    As for wolfs and grizzlies anyone who knows the outdoors knows the danger of wild animals loosing the fear of humans. When they get to that point they should be caged and fed a steady diet of PETA members. JK no hate here, Pamela can get my attention except the whole listening part