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if you don't think USFW monitors this site

Discussion in 'For Sale' started by gab, Aug 15, 2012.

  1. boarzhead

    boarzhead God created man... Samuel Colt made them equal!

    When i was growing up this lady down road had a pet crow. She had its tongue nipped and it had the largest vocabuary i have ever seen. Talked so clear like an african grey parrot. It was cool. We used to always hunt what we call the spring fling, march breeding time in nh. We used to hunt over my friends dairy farm when they would plow fields for planting. Would give them the dead ones to hang on fence and live crows would stay clear of planted fields. They are smart. I will post video of one i saw on utube that shows they are cool and smart.
  2. boarzhead

    boarzhead God created man... Samuel Colt made them equal!

    I know they say its russian but ours are smart to. Haha


  3. Todd B

    Todd B Active Member

    That is exactly what I am saying. Pen raised birds are a totally different thing than wild waterfowl or migratory birds. But parts are not allowed to be kept from even legally obtained waterfowl. Alot of people do alot of things with feathers but if the USFW wanted to investigate I am sure they could find lots of violations along the way. The line I quoted you is the regulation pertaining to parts.

    Todd B
  4. JL

    JL Taxidermist for 64 years

    Boarzhead....I live in New Hampshire and there is a season on crows. It's not like it used to be. Better check the regs before you shoot...! JL Where in NH did you live?
  5. byrdman

    byrdman Well-Known Member

    todd B ...you need to re-read your regs......
  6. boarzhead

    boarzhead God created man... Samuel Colt made them equal!

    Used to live in manchester near londonderry border. Left there and moved to Alaska then joined army and now in AZ for now then back to Ak soon.
  7. Todd B

    Todd B Active Member

    Show me in the regulations where it says you are allowed to keep parts. As I said the regs can be interpreted by each individual reading them differently. No where does it say parts are allowed to be kept. But the closest thing pertaining to parts I see is:

    (1) Receive, transport, hold in custody or possession, mount or otherwise prepare, migratory birds, and their parts, nests, or eggs, and return them to another.

    Clearly says" Return them to another."

    Title 50: Wildlife and Fisheries




    Subpart C: Specific Permit Provisions

    21.24 - Taxidermist permits.

    (a) Permit requirement. A taxidermist permit is required before any person may perform taxidermy services on migratory birds or their parts, nests, or eggs for any person other than himself.

    (b) Application procedures. Submit application for taxidermist permits to the appropriate Regional Director (Attention: Migratory bird permit office). You can find addresses for the Regional Directors in 50 CFR 2.2. Each application must contain the general information and certification required in ? 13.12(a) of this subchapter, and the following additional information:

    (1) The address of premises where taxidermist services will be provided;

    (2) A statement of the applicant's qualifications and experience as a taxidermist; and

    (3) If a State permit is required by State law, a statement as to whether or not the applicant possesses such State permit, giving its number and expiration date.

    (c) Permit authorizations. A permit authorizes a taxidermist to:

    (1) Receive, transport, hold in custody or possession, mount or otherwise prepare, migratory birds, and their parts, nests, or eggs, and return them to another.

    (2) Sell properly marked, captive reared migratory waterfowl which he has lawfully acquired and mounted. Such mounted birds may be placed on consignment for sale and may be possessed by such consignee for the purpose of sale.

    (d) Additional permit conditions. In addition to the general conditions set forth in part 13 of this subchapter B, taxidermist permits shall be subject to the following conditions:

    (1) Permittees must keep accurate records of operations, on a calendar year basis, showing the names and addresses of persons from and to whom migratory birds or their parts, nests, or eggs were received or delivered, the number and species of such, and the dates of receipt and delivery. In addition to the other records required by this paragraph, the permittee must maintain in his files, the original of the completed Form 3-186, Notice of Waterfowl Sale or Transfer, confirming his acquisition of captive reared, properly marked migratory waterfowl from the holder of a current waterfowl sale and disposal permit.

    (2) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph (c) of this section, the receipt, possession, and storage by a taxidermist of any migratory game birds taken by another by hunting is not authorized unless they are tagged as required by ? 20.36 of this subchapter. The required tags may be removed during the taxidermy operations but must be retained by the taxidermist with the other records required to be kept and must be reattached to the mounted specimen after mounting. The tag must then remain attached until the mounted specimen is delivered to the owner.

    (e) Term of permit. A taxidermist permit issued or renewed under this part expires on the date designated on the face of the permit unless amended or revoked, but the term of the permit will not exceed five (5) years from the date of issuance or renewal.

    [39 FR 1178, Jan. 4, 1974, as amended at 54 FR 38151, Sept. 14, 1989; 63 FR 52637, Oct. 1, 1998; 70 FR 18320, Apr. 11, 2005]
  8. horsefeathers

    horsefeathers Member

    That section of the regs are as it applies to taxidermists for migratory bird permits (I think. Someone correct me if I am wrong). They don't want you hanging onto parts of birds that aren't legally yours, is what I am reading. As someone who is not a taxidermist (yet), or someone who would have any other birds other than birds I harvested myself, or gifted birds I do not see how that section of the law applies. Going back to the pillow example, I know of a number of businesses that take feathers that are from the legal hunter of the birds and make them into pillows. I am not aware if they are required to have a migratory bird permit, but it seems like they might have to since they are not the owner of the feathers. If the hunter is the legitimate owner of the birds, and they are making pillows from the hunters birds, for the hunter who killed them... how is this against the law?
  9. byrdman

    byrdman Well-Known Member

    ya todd your not reading it right...they are talking about licensed taxidermist who take in birds and possibly extra parts for taxidermy work...otherwise gifted or shot by yourself you can have all the parts you want....I know guys who have over 50 duck wings........also skull collections....
  10. Crow biologist here and I can verify what George said about the hunting seasons. They can be hunted but are still protected by MBTA law. This is a bit of a strange story. With a small game license, or if they are damaging property, you can shoot them and there is usually no limit. However, to try to help an injured crow, to keep one as a pet, or, in our case, band/tag and release, it's either completely illegal or takes a fair amount of permits. It can be super frustrating! I would prefer to see them fully protected, or at least regulated like waterfowl, but the regulations in place makes American crow part laws SUPER fuzzy; especially since a hunter can keep their kill and gift parts to another person. Additionally, I don't expect most people to be able to tell the difference between a crow and raven, let alone an American crow (legal to hunt) and a fish crow (not legal). I've been studying crows for 5 years and I still have trouble telling the two apart unless they call or stand next to one another. Here is more crow law information: http://www.birds.cornell.edu/crows/crowfaq.htm#legal

    As far as "vermin" goes, I wish people would look at the research and stop playing in to old fables, myths, and biases. Crows do a lot more agricultural GOOD than they do damage. This isn't me saying this just because I study them; I'm interested in their actual behavior, not glorifying or demonizing them. Crows eat more arthropod/bug pests in agricultural fields than they do the actual crop, and they are typically after waste grain in the fields once they have been harvested. Crows do take song bird eggs and chicks on occasion, but the biggest culprits in eating song bird eggs/chicks are squirrels and chipmunks...even deer eat ground-nesting bird nests/chicks! Crows are not killing off peoples' song birds (http://www.birds.cornell.edu/crows/removal.htm). A large percentage of a crow's diet is arthropods, however meat is a big dang deal and they will eat it ravenously (no pun intended) if they can get it. Road-kill is a favorite!

    This isn't to say that crows aren't capable of damage, but I wish people would learn about the animal itself and stop basing their knowledge on word-of-mouth. Crows are highly intelligent, complexly social animals. Shooting just one bird sends ripples through their social structure. It's very sad when you can see it happening. Crows are cooperative breeders, like us, which means it's a mother, father and their kids (which help raise subsequent kids...their siblings) that defend a home territory. The breeding pair (mom and dad) stay bonded for life and often maintain social bonds with their kids, even after their kids "move out" and start a new territory with a mate. Crows will also visit communal foraging sites (like a trash heap, or compost pile, or harvested field) during the day and return to home. Much like your kids going to visit the mall or eat at a restaurant! Fascinating stuff!!!

    And the massive roosts people see in the winter are a matter of gathering (from miles around) behavior, not a matter of increased or out-of-control populations, like a lot of people with the "vermin" view think. Roosts can be super obnoxious, but they aren't a sign that crows need to be shot or the population controlled.

    Another note about George's comment is that crows have done something very significant in the past 30 or so years, and that is to move in to cities and towns. They are evolving behaviorally, and some genetic evidence suggests that suburban/urban crows are differing from their rural cousins and may only be breeding with other urban/suburban crows...so we may see two separate species emerge if they stay so segregated. So, even though crows have been eating roadkill (and just about anything else they can find) for probably as long as cars have existed, it's only relatively recent that they are doing so around large populations of people and are therefore being seen doing it more often. That's my theory for George's observations!

    Kevin McGowan, who has been objectively studying crows for the past 25 years, has a website all about crow information if you are interested: http://www.birds.cornell.edu/crows/crowinfo.htm

    One more myth is the tongue splitting. You do NOT have to alter a crow's tongue for it to mimic human speech (especially since birds use their syrinx to make sound, not their tongues, like us). Crow tongues naturally look slightly "split" if you see them up close, but the idea of splitting a bird's tongue to make it talk is false. Also the hanging of dead crows is quite common and effective, you are right, they learn!

    Long story short? Crows are awesome and deserve more respect. They are shockingly like people!! :) Taxidermy is awesome because we can bring the animal "back to life" and restore its natural beauty. With so much respect for that natural beauty I think we owe it to the animals to learn about their life, not just how to restore them in death. And honestly, I think the best taxidermy comes from people who understand the animal's behavior!
  11. Todd B

    Todd B Active Member

    my mistake, I thought we were talking about taxidermists.