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rotating the eyes

Discussion in 'Deer and Gameheads' started by skulley, Jan 26, 2013.

  1. I have spent a lot of time researching the archives and looking at reference. I was hoping to get some input on rotating the eyes for a head down aggressive pose. I realize there is a lot going on with muscle and skin but thought I would ask before I dove into the frigid black abyss. My thought was to change the angle that the eye normally fits the form by tilting the top in a bit and using a bit of extra clay behind the bottom. I usually check eye depth with a straight edge and was thinking that if I did this right it would still maintain normal depth. Am I even close? If i had plenty of spare time I would just start experimenting but was hoping for a little help first.
     
  2. Let me ask you this first....why do you want to change the angle on the eyes from top to bottom
     

  3. Well............I would like to show a good portion of white on the bottom of the eye. When I tilt my head down and still try to maintain eye contact I can feel my eyes "rotate". If you just put them in as usual on the form you would have to taxi the hide around the eye to accomplish this but it would not be in the right place. Perhaps the eye needs to move vertically as well? I would think that that any adjustments from a standard eye set would have to be small. I have put some clay on and played with this a bit but was hoping for some help or clarification before I pressed on only to find that it doesn't work.
     
  4. brigham boy

    brigham boy "if it's horny, mount it"

    738
    0
    utah
    Find some reference that has your desired look, drill out your eye sockets and position your eyes until you get it looking how you want it, with the aid of reference.

    Droid Baby!!!

    Shut up and mount
     
  5. 24/7

    24/7 New Member

    Skulley i jus did one of those mounts myself and from most ref pics i saw the white was mostly showing in the rear corner. Dennis sent me some great ref pics and i will attempt to pm them to u but it may b this afternoon before i hav time to try. I leveled the eyes normaly .
     
  6. huntnut78

    huntnut78 Member

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    0
    Consider what Vince is asking you, I have many reference photos of aggressive whitetails. And done many aggresive mounts. If visible at all, white is typically visible in the front corner of one eye, and the back side of the opposing eye. Vary rarely is white visible the top or bottom of the eye unless the head is twisted at an exteme angle, horizontal to the ground. Like two bucks fighting, or think of a calf getting bulldogged. I think anything else would look pretty unatural.
     
  7. yes, i realize the eyes are typically opposite in their rotation. Most of the reference i have also shows most of the white either in front or back but i have a few that show from the bottom, and yes huntnut, they are indeed fighting and have their heads at extreme angles tilting to the side. i think that alot of posture and attitude can be gained but i hear you loud and clear on "un-natural looking". So..............back to my question of creating angle. Would y'all say that the average head down aggressive position would cause the eyes to rotate up and forward on one side and up and back on the other? This is what the reference tells me and if so i can create these angles simply by drilling the eye socket and manipulating the eyeset angles a bit? Thanks for the input.
     
  8. If you can post a pic of your ref that you are talking about and the angle of the head or the form you are using. I'll try and post some pics either tonight or tomorrow, just taking a break to eat then back to the shop....
     
  9. Paul B

    Paul B Active Member

    2,465
    23
    As BB said, open up eye sockets, clay and position eyes in the desired look you want keeping the pupils level. The rotation also depends on the turn on a aggressive pose as the deer is focusing on his opponent. Straight form, eyes will be set the same.
     
  10. crap, knew it wouldn't be long till someone wanted me to post some pics. i do good to just to post. its a M. Thompson 8500 wall ped that i modified for a table top ped and altered the head, dropping it downward about 2". sorry, description is not much compared to a pic. backchecking the reference i have to agree about rotations. very little if any white showing towards the bottom except for xtreme angling of the head, which my form does not mimic. will just go for it and try n get some pics posted. i have taken pics of the project but they are still on the camera. want to thank those who replied. vince, wasnt sure what you were after at first but that was a great question, pointed things in the right direction.
     
  11. [​IMG]

    well hot diggidy dawg.................you can teach an ol dawg new tricks
     
  12. Yep I was hoping you didn't take it as me being smart....wanted you to think it through...if someone just tells you it may not make as much sense or allow you to understand why. You learn a lot more when you work through it. What you were probably seeing if you saw white on the bottom of the eye was a deer with it's head canted to the side. Look on here under aggressive whitetail under the reference pics...most white showing due to the leveling of the eyes (pupil parallel to the ground) with the head down, and eyes focused forward and wide open more oval eye this will cause the white top/back portion of the eye to show white.

    That is going to look sweet...love how the wood fits with the deer!

    Here is a link to some pics on here
    http://www.taxidermy.net/forum/index.php/topic,125364.0.html
     
  13. Thanks vince, i am anxious to get this mounted. Have been waiting to use that old burnt stump for some time now. I have been pouring over the ref. in the link you mentioned. thanks for the insight, i appreciate the help.
     
  14. Riverland

    Riverland New Member

    Not a fan of head up aggresive deer. Unless they are up on there hind legs up kicking its not a natural position. When they are posturing to be aggresive they usually come in side stepping more with the head lower to make themselves appear larger. The eyes can show a lot of white with stress and/or head roll. A lot of reference pics show way more white than they should because the deer is uncomfortable being photographed. When looking at deer reference pay attention to what the deer is looking at when being photograghed, it can effect the eye angle tremendously and create unnatural stuff.
     
  15. He is showing a pic of a head down "aggressive" pose. Did you think he was wanting to mount a head up? I like the pic and the way the driftwood fits it too. Wish I had time to practice all the cool ideas I see one here. I'm lucky to get to mount 1 of my own things once every couple of years.
     
  16. Riverland

    Riverland New Member

    The form is in an upright position with the head down looking back in an aggressive position. What I'm saying is I would like to see some reference that backs that up. Kind hard to show off the head gear and how big your body is when you are running away.
    Not saying a deer can't do what he is doing but the head/neck is usually lower to get more size in their profile to the other deer. and straighter. Just an observation. I look at thousands of wild deer pics every week in the fall and its all normal interaction behavior with wild deer.
     
  17. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Riverland, I agree with you.
    Another taxidermist was in the shop this morning and we laughed at the popularity of poses that don't exist in real life. You know the ones with steroidal muscles and facial veining that all of our northern tier animals would only have if they were shaved.

    The pose being depicted here is common with does on bait piles. I've spent dozens of hours watching live deer and PERHAPS a more mature buck would give that "look" to a younger one across a bait pile. If he did, it would be sufficient to run the animal off. I have never seen a bruiser buck hold it's head erect like that to initiate a fight. The heads are ALWAYS down and ears are laid back and down. The only time I've seen the whites of the eyes like described is the moment they approach side to side OR when they're locked up . In this pose, the eyes are usually partially closed.
     
  18. Ans so it begins :) I harvested this buck during late archery from a ground blind over bait. You are dead on George. This buck was in full rut and feeding when a smaller buck came in from behind. When i put an arrow through this deer i could see the white in his left eye, i was only 15 yards away. Although I understand your comments (especially yours George) this pose is common to a lot of hunters that use bait.
    I sure dont want to get into a bait/no bait discussion, and I appreciate your comments but what would really help me is if either of you could give me some help on the rotation process. If not, that's fine too.
     
  19. Riverland

    Riverland New Member

    Lots of good eye rotation reference on thus site in the reference pic area. Pay attention if it is natural movement or the deer is focused on the photographer
     
  20. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Skully, I guess we can't help because we've never seen it and have no reference. The best advise I could give you is to set a mirror out in front of your mount where you imagine the threat to be. "Focus" the eyes on the mirror. You'll likely need "forward look" eyes so you have the heavy white band in the rear. Then sculpt your clay until the white appears as you want it.