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Taxidermy Inspection and consfication of client mounts.

Discussion in 'The Taxidermy Industry' started by skullcleaner, Mar 3, 2013.

  1. Cole

    Cole Amateur Taxidermist

    You were told a load of crap. I had an agent tell me the same thing..."If you want to wait another 3 hours while I get a warrant we can". I said yes please, I will wait. A warrant cannot be issued without probable cause, and you denying search and seizure is not grounds for probable cause. I called my warden's bluff and he left without incident and of course never returned with a warrant. The Showers case spells out the differences between search and inspection. It doesn't matter what they say you are required to do under your license. State law does not supersede federal law. You have rights as a US citizen that states cannot take away. They can inspect your records. They can ask to see a specimen to make sure it matches your records. They cannot search your freezers, storage areas, closets, or even your medicine cabinet. If the story you related is true how you told it with no facts missing, that taxidermists rights were violated.
     
  2. Kerby Ross

    Kerby Ross KSU - Class of '83; U.S. Army - Infantry (83-92)

    Cole is .....

    Cole is 100% correct. The 4th Amendment is not debatable.

    Arizona requires a taxidermy license....with that gives AZ G&F the right to see my records. So when they show up I get my records and let them see it. If they want to see if my specimens are properly tagged I will go and get them out of the freezer and let them look at the specimen. It is THAT SIMPLE. F&G does not have the right to look in my freezer.....for any reason unless they have a warrant (which has to be specific in what they are looking for).

    It is that way IN ALL 50 states.

    Nuff said.

    :)

    Kerby...
     

  3. 3bears

    3bears Well-Known Member

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    Kerby, Did you happen to read the Wyoming regs. If not google them. It states on page 5 of chapter 36 that every taxidermist shop is to be open for any unannounced inspection and possible confiscation during reasonable business hours. I choked when I read that. I understand what you are saying about rights but how the hell do they get away with this?
     
  4. Re: Cole is .....


    NO it isn't!!!!!
     
  5. That is because we agreed to it when we applied and accepted the state issued license. If you don't agree to it then no license and you won't have to worry about inspections
     
  6. Cole

    Cole Amateur Taxidermist

    That is not true. You agree to inspections, not illegal searches. Like I said earlier, the difference between inspection and search is clearly spelled out in the Showers case. 3bears, those regs say inspection. If they inspect and find something illegal, of course they are going to seize it.
     
  7. James Parrish

    James Parrish Tundra Swan...Its What's For Dinner!

    You do not lose your rights by simply accepting a taxidermy license. Most states allow officers to inspect records and wildlife. I interpret that to mean that an officer comes in, asks for your records, looks through them, and can then ask to see any specimen he wishes. When asked for a specimen, you go to the freezer unaccompanied and bring back the requested specimen. The officer does not have the right to open closed doors, look in freezers, etc. without your consent...which you are not bound by any license to give. If the officer starts asking to see all of your specimens, you should ask for a warrant...which they still have to get under the 4th amendment regardless of what you signed in the past. When asking for a warrant, an officer had to show probable cause to a judge or magistrate that there has been a law broken. The officer has to make specific requests on what he wants to search and what specifically he is looking for. Contrary to popular belief, an officer does not have to have probable cause to ask your permission to search. Anything found during a search you consented to is adjustable in court and your lawyer cannot use the defense that your 4A rights were violated because you voluntarily gave them up.
     
  8. mike g

    mike g Active Member

    Sounds like the wording to the law is open to interpretation.

    We have a local USFW CO here in Nebraska that says ALL Taxidermists are crooks and we will do anything for a Buck (meaning dollar). When he and the state boys show up, that is exactly how he treats you, as if you are a crook. You would be surprised at just how many open the doors to him and give him free range through out their shops.
     
  9. Pescado

    Pescado Biggest in 2011

    How often do you get checked? There must be some reason as to why they are there , as you put it, "often".

    PB
     
  10. 3bears

    3bears Well-Known Member

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    Hudson, I do try to keep on top of the laws and believe I do know my rights. It seems that you are as unaware of what goes on outside of your world as I was. I do understand the difference between the two. We have had a similar discussion before. Each state is able to regulate taxidermists as they choose. It appears that includes making them similar to rules regulating ATF businesses. I don't know how often the COs in Wyoming push this regulation. I for one would not like it, but it seems, for now anyway, the price of doing taxidermy in Wyoming. Cole, I read the case you are refering to, I don't remember it defining the difference between inspection and search, could you tell where to look please?
     
  11. Don't even let them in your shop. If they want to see my records I will bring them out, they can sit in there truck and look at them.
    IDEA ! How about a seminar at a Taxidermy Convention that tells you what the G&F can do and not do. How about a DVD on your rights. (I get a 10% cut for coming up with the idea, really, I do.)
     
  12. At our last MN show we had two wardens come for a sit down Q and A seminar. Very enlightning. I don't do birds or duck hunt anymore but one thing that caught me by surpirise is that if a hunter has ducks to be mounted at a taxidermist's shop- they count towards the hunter's possesion limit until they are mounted. That was a real eye opener. They even called the federal warden and confirmed that when it was questioned. Anyone ever hear of that?
     
  13. You guys can interpret all you want. I know that here in Maryland that it has been upheld it court. They can and will ask to see every document and specimen in your invetory if your a dick. And remember if you do not cooperate, your license can be taken from you it's a priviledge to have a license not a guarantee.

    I've seen them turned away one day came back the next day with a warrant because of the failure to comply with said license. He was shut down forever that same day. Took it to court and lost.
     
  14. Paul C

    Paul C New Member

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    In the past 15 years the PTA has had 6 or 7 "legal"seminars at the PTA Convention. There are also LOTS of people very experienced with Laws And their Enforcement at every convention for you to talk to including, most years, MIKE SHOWERS himself.
     
  15. 3bears

    3bears Well-Known Member

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    Hudson, It is an interesting thread. I had the opposite experience as you. The MNDNR had no clue how to answer my questions when I contacted them, and I talked with multiple ranks. I finally had enough and went to the persons who I would deal with, meaning the local COs. They are the ones who are going to enforce the laws upon me. I have documented everything that we have discussed. As most can see we, can't agree on what the exact meaning of inspection is. It is open to interpritation whether we like it or not. Yes there are ways to challange different interpritaions of the laws but I would rather not fight it out in court, but I would if it came to that. I am not trying to mislead anyone here but open eyes to this issue.
     
  16. duxrus

    duxrus Active Member

    I will have to disagree with that 100%. Were those state wardens? The Fed's I have all asked said that as soon as a taxidermist takes possesion that voided the hunter's responsibility. So what if someone had 12 birds at a taxidermit's shop with a long turn around? I guess they couldn't hunt the following season until they got them back....??? I call BS
     
  17. 3bears

    3bears Well-Known Member

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    Here we go another discussion on in the field limit verses possession limit. If there is a state or federal warden reading this, please clarify this. I know there was one that would comment now and again.
     
  18. Cole

    Cole Amateur Taxidermist

    I agree with Duxrus. There was an article in Breakthrough written by their legal contributor (I don't recall his name) about this exact thing, and he said they do NOT count against possession limit. Just like Bucknut, we had a warden hold a Q&A at our show a couple years ago. Half of the stuff he said was wrong according to the law, and the other half I think he made up off the top of his head. Wardens are not who to ask if you want to know your rights.
     
  19. Yes - they were state wardens. When we questioned that. They called the federal warden who said the same thing. I guess you better hope your taxi has a quick turn around.
     
  20. 3bears

    3bears Well-Known Member

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    Cole, you are correct the warden isn't who you ask about your rights, but he is the one to enforce the laws upon you. I read that article but he suggested that without a sworn statement about the dates those birds were taken, they could be counted against your limit. This is quoted directly from MN hunting regs. "Possession" Defined. Game animals are in a person's possession whether on hand, in cold storage, in transport or elsewhere." What does this mean to those reading this?