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Simple observation

Discussion in 'The Taxidermy Industry' started by Rick Carter, May 20, 2013.

  1. Well said Dale, I would like to add that if you don't agree with the rules of the WTC then please don't compete,so we can avoid a stupid thread like this one.
  2. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Jim why not take a dose of your own medicine. If you don't like this thread, stay off of it and let those of us who feel like voicing our opinions continue.

  3. Ted B

    Ted B Active Member

    George, assuming it went 90, 90 and 89 whos to say that the 2 judges who gave 90's weren't being generous and bumping it up?
  4. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    There were 189 mounts in the masters division competing for those 16 titles. I new straight up that a lot of deserving mounts would go home with no ribbon. I was completely prepared for this as this wasn't my 1st rodeo. Considering how strong some of those losing pieces were, I am surprised this thread isn't longer or more intense. Any competitor who goes into any show believing he/she knows how they will do against works they have never seen before is setting themselves up for disappointment. I saw Randys fish and I loved it. I wish it was mine. It could have cleaned up at so many other shows. I am sorry that he and so many others didn't do as well as they would have hoped. The real tragedy would be if they didn't come back and show us more of their beautiful work. I too have been disappointed in the past. It just made me more determined.
  5. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    LOL Ted, but either way it comes back to judges playing with the numbers between 89 and 91. IF judges would wise up and stay away from those numbers the PERCEPTION of that final score would never become an issue. They might be go.e for academic work, but not in opinion based competitions.
  6. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    George, the guys giving it a 90 might have done just that...not hung it out at 89.

    It all boils down to this...do we want the World show to say "the best man wins, regardless"? or do we want the mount to have to meet a level if criteria or standard to be awarded the title Best in World?

    I agree with Ken on this. I also feel that choosing the best mount based only on that show, regardless of strength overall, will not be whats best. Like Ken eluded to, the thought of what remained "on the cutting room floor" so to speak, couldve beat some of the past winners.

    I do, however, scratch my head when I hear that a solid piece doesnt win when the judges had it right there, and I hear a comment was made by a judge saying they knew it was his, and felt he could do better...The largemouth category and the turkey category had a similar fate in a past World show. Its frustrating I know.

    Having said this I still love the World show and hope it remains the best competition we have. I know Larry and Kathy, and Skip, work hard for it to be.
  7. Gosh George, Just making a point. You were the one that stated the masters was the "best of the best" and that any "bad" mount in that division would win at all other levels. Not necessarily. I didn't realize you were the one that determined what is and isn't up for discussion. Pretty opinionated for a person that didn't even participate. Good luck to all future posters on "George's" thread.
  8. lonewolf1330

    lonewolf1330 Member

    Yes a lot of judges are full of themselfs but I think more competitors are its the world show if you go thinking you will win most times you will get your feelings hurt anyone who compeates a lot has been in both places sometimes you win sometimes you loose sux yes but that's why we do it
  9. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Dale,what you competitors fail to understand that someone like me is the only OBJECTIVE source you have. I don't have to worry about judging ineptness, grudges, or politics. Guys like you can NEVER say the things I do without some naggering, lingering thoughts of someone "getting even". And NO, I'm NOT saying substandard work should be rewarded. I'd still presume with that many entries, there would be at least 3 or 4 WORLD CLASS mounts. I'm not at all surprised at those of you defending this. What I AM surprised at is the number of PM' s and emails I got on this. One world class taxidermist told me he got a 60+ by this guy on his entry. All I can conclude is that some of you are looking through the trees for the forest.
  10. 1fish2fish

    1fish2fish Well-Known Member

    CHAMPIONSHIP: A contest for the position of champion in a sport, often involving a series of games or matches.

    CONTEST: An event in which people compete for supremacy in a sport, activity, or particular quality.

    COMPETITION: An event or contest in which people compete

    STANDARD: A level of quality or attainment

    SHOW: A spectacle or display of something, typically an impressive one

    A couple definitions to consider. Those who approach the "World Taxidermy and Fish Carving Championships" as a contest, within the scope of the definition, naturally expect a winner. Since nature/the animal is an impossible standard, as defined, and only a pompus dolt would be trying for supremacy over nature/God's handywork; its either supremecy over the other entries in the specific event, or against a defined standard criterea. As I understand it, the way the "World Taxidermy and Fish Carving Championships" is set up, its both. "Best of Subcatagory" and "Best in Catagory" are used to award "supremacy" against other enteries, and "Best in World" is awarded against other entries AND a supposed "standard".

    The part that gets sticky is that "standard" used to adjudge a "Best in World" title, because it can appear to be a moving target. First and foremost, you don't have the same judges for every WT&FCC. That alone makes it impossible to maintain consistancy of the "standard" over time. On top of that, every competition entry is unique, so personal interpretation and perception of art is involved. Furthermore, "Best in World" is not even judged against a score, its based on the secret ballot votes/discretion of the category judges. Additionally, as technology and education advance the industry, the perception of what represents the "standard" may change over the years based on what folks judging the event come to expect.

    Maybe there is a better definition of what the "standard" for "best in world" is, but, as it reads in the rules and regulations, its probably best defined as "the discretion of the (category) judges". When you accept that, there is little reason to complain. Personally, I think of the event as the "World Show" and as that, its a great success, as much because of the participants as the hosts. There is an abundance of incredible art on display that I'd rather look at than a gold medallion any day. Really, the whole thing is a great tribute to us all. No matter the outcome, you've got to credit the folks who put it all together, the greatest single display of taxidermy on earth.

    Best, Scott
  11. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Thank you Scott. Very well put.

    I was thinking today wondering how we got into making taxidermy competitions like grade school report cards. I'm sure that it was designed with good intentions to give a number reference so that a "judge" would be able to defend who or why a certain piece won. Yet at the same time, the innovator of the idea lost sight that there IS NO STANDARD (Sorry Bill, you can keep saying it but I ain't buying it. As I said, if there truly was one, you could take the piece that won in 1993 and it would look no different from the one that won this year. THAT'S a "standard".) If you compete in the baking contest at the state fair, there's no "grade" given. Like a diamond that is judged on cut, color, clarity, and carat, a pie is judged on appearance, presentation and taste. Once one of those is lost, the pie is dismissed. Now you end up with several good tasting pies that look good and are presented attractively. Judges then PICK ONE. No numbers involved. If you're judging pigs or sheep or horses, there are markers, but eventually you end up with a hand full that meet all those markers. Then you just have to pick one - even if its for nothing more than his teeth are whiter. In our industry, the numbers have become a crutch for the judge and perch for the competitors. I know there have been some 100 scores given out, but as Cally Morris said, if you could train a duck to stand perfectly still, it would likely get no better than a red ribbon in our competitions. (So much for the "standard".)

    Do I have a solution? NO! Certainly not without tearing the entire system apart and building it from the ground up. And even then, that nasty "human factor" is always going to be there since THERE IS NO STANDARD TO GAUGE JUDGES BY EITHER. So we live with it and bitch about it. And besides that, it usually promotes long posts.
  12. RichMO

    RichMO Well-Known Member

    AMEN.... 1fish2fish and George.
  13. DeeCee

    DeeCee New Member

    I probably don't know enough about competing to enter this discussion, however.... When someone says you shouldn't hand out a score of 89, that, to me, is absurd. It reminds me of an administrator at school who once told me I couldn't mark wrong answers in red anymore, I needed to use green so as not to give a kid an inferiority complex. Her and the disgruntled kid need to get a life.
    Why does an 89 have to be a slight to the competitor? Why can't it simply mean that it was just barely below a blue?
  14. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Donnie, it's a slight because it's put there without a gauge to define it. That's what I was referring to. In school, a wrong answer is wrong, but when you apply that to a taxidermy competition, what's "wrong" to one guy may be right to another. Certainly a judge without reference pictures to back his claim or a competitor with reference pictures to back up his claim show that there is no constant. When you're dealing with variables based solely on opinion, a judge just pulls an 89 out of his ass. He either intends to tell the guy it's good but not good enough to blue OR he maliciously intends on keeping the guy out of the blue. To the competitor whose aspirations is that sacred blue ribbon, he's going to rack his brain seeing just where he might have made up that ONE POINT where, in reality, it was not REALLY one point that kept him from that blue ribbon. The stark truth is that no matter what he'd done, he wasn't getting a blue ribbon. And THAT'S why I say that a "grade" system is just bad for a system that is so dependant on egos. If it was a specific answer to a specific question, then that's different. If I said Columbus landed on Hispaniola in 1491, that would be wrong and 1492 would be correct. If I think the eyes of a mount are 1/16th of an inch different, it's just my opinion but it still counts against the competitor as being wrong. Then to say that instead of a whole point, I'll deduct 1/3 of a point is just pompass arrogance in my book.
  15. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    The PMs and calls Ive received on this topic say otherwise. I will agree though, that many wont say what George does, or what I say, for fear of retaliation. We all wish we could remove crappy judges. I think thats the big deal here...poor judges, NOT the system.

    Let me add this, after I reread what I posted here last night...Im not saying any judge in particular. My judge comment meant based on experiences others here have described over their own experiences of the past. Hopefully those experiences didnt include ME as the judge!
  16. dablaw

    dablaw Member

    To add even more to what George posted...You could use dog shows as an example and a good one at that..Wesminster, Eukanuba, and the AKC/UKC championships are judged down to best in each breed category..Then down to finalists, then down to a best in show, world, or whatever...Could we not choose somewhere along those lines???
    When I was growing up way back when, and played baseball, not all of use were winners...At the end of the series championships, there was a 1st place, and a runner up, and that was it....Now everyone gets a trophy as to not hurt some poor kids feelings so he doesn't have to have therapy for a month...What the heck has happened????
    I tried to look at my own quality of work that I put out on a daily basis..When I went to the WTC I tried to compare what goes out my door with all the work there...I think some of them I have beat, but there were a heck of a lot more there I couldn't even come close too...And you know what, that's OK by me...I love seeing people doing awesome work...I guess I'm just competitive enough, or just don't have to prove anything anymore with anything I do...I do the best I can at the time in whatever I try to do...If someone else does better, I'll gladly shake there hand and say good job...
    With taxidermy it is very relaxing to me after doing public work in the worst day to day environment I ever had...Now I'm enjoying life...every day..Life is way to short to gloat and say "Hey look at me" If you do good work you don't have to brag...people will notice...
    As long as my customer is 100% satisfied, and I have done the best I could at the time, then I'm fullfilled...I hope everyone that enters shows, and the judges will try to loosen there collar, relax, ENJOY, and be honest with themselves and how they will perceive a piece, rather than go strictly by a score sheet....
    Kind of reminds me of the guy that was able to write out hand written receipts for customers during a power outage, as opposed to the guy that only had knowledge of computers and everything modern that couldn't deal with it.....
    It's not so much the "I can't see the forest for the tree's" as it's I can't see the forest because I'm not looking in the right direction...
    Sorry I rambled too much...God Bless you George...be saying a prayer here in a minute when I go to bed for ya...David.
  17. antlerman

    antlerman NTA Life Member #0118

    Excellent analogy Scott. Very well said.
  18. rd@nt

    [email protected] New Member

    Here's a fact eyes on some fish have a different color eye lid and don't match the body color but you can get hammered for this. I would like ken to show my score sheets on my sturgeon on here and I will let you all to be the judges and tell me if my little sturgeon was a first place or not or maybe I am wrong for saying anything? The thing that bothers me the most is Bob Berry put all great when he scored it at Michigan this year. You can see a picture of it on the Michigan ass. site. Randy D.
  19. Wildside

    Wildside Active Member

    The biggest thing about all of this to me is that the "World Show" is privately owned and operated and can be run however Larry wants. As much as each person posting on here wants things changed to suite there opinion, it is not up to us.

    All you can do is make your decision to go and compete and get the judges opinion on your mount. And it is just that....someones opinion that you went to get. If they didn't play fair, you take your "ball" home and don't come back to play with them again. Or you come back and and and try again.

    Or just go to the convention, socialize, enjoy yourself and get everything out of the convention as possible.

    It does not have to be ALL about winning and competition.