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Simple observation

Discussion in 'The Taxidermy Industry' started by Rick Carter, May 20, 2013.

  1. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Tim I've yet to meet anyone who win an award who claimed he didn't earn it. Secondly, there is not nor has there ever been s "standard" in taxidermy. Before you tell me its the score, tell me about 1/3 of a point. If a fraction of a point is used to deny someone from meeting a "standard", please don't tell me the human factor shouldn't be considered. IFT a piece is the BEST of all the entries you have presented, who devices it didn't meet a "standard" not present to be gauged by?

    Dale, who was the World Champion in Largemouth Bass?
     
  2. rd@nt

    [email protected] New Member

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    Also who was the world champion in reproductions? Here is a Tip for all Taxidermist. Being I am all done competing. If you want to cast something. Use s
    Smoothon 300 over your cast yes spray a realize. Whe
    ther a carcass cast a fish or a bird ect. even antlers. I have over 600 molds done this way. Dry the skin or fish skin. Pour the 3oo over the cast to pick up detail usually twice now mix 3030 from innovative polymers with cabisol to make like peanut butter spread over cast mabey twice depending on how large the species is. Call scott and he can help you at innovative polymers or paul B. Now turn specimen over spray realize and do same thing. now you have a permanent mold. Now take out your fish skin out and mount it over the perfect body you made. very fast. No I am not going to answer all questions but this method works I have shared this with a few if they want to answer this is fine with me.
     

  3. Rick Carter

    Rick Carter Administrator


    Dale, No one had to admit anything to make the point that they are full of themselves. Arrogance is easy to spot.

    I quit judging because the entire method is flawed beyond repair. As long as mounts are judged from a negative point of deduction, history will continue to repeat itself. The scoring methods we use are fine if they are intended to teach beginners. Those same critiques become worthless anchors around the competitors neck once the blue ribbon barrier is crossed. The score sheets and deduction mentality inhibit creativity and artistry. Innovation becomes a liability instead of a bonus. Ive seen far too many "safe" and boring mounts win out over spectacular mounts because of the obvious complications due to an extreme level of difficulty. I have also seen judges become extremely critical of pieces that were far above their own level of expertise. I'm not saying these things from the viewpoint of a disgruntled competitor. I'm saying it because of the many times I saw it happen from fellow judges. I have heard comments concerning anatomy that were so far from the truth it was sickening. I understand the need for a standard as reflected in Antlerman's post because I have seen at least 3 "World Champion" pieces that I wouldn't let go out of my commercial studio. On the flip side, I have seen a lot more mounts that deserved a title that went home empty handed. If you are looking for a more specific answer then lets go ahead and clear the air! It would be a very safe assumption that Matt Thompson and Kenneth Bauman both do commercial mounts on a daily basis that far exceed the quality of some of the competition fish of bygone years. Is their absolute best work really unworthy of a World Title? B.S.!
     
  4. Harry Whitehead

    Harry Whitehead I love to hunt Buffalos!!!!!

    I think that when a competitor comes to a show to get the "opinion" of a judge he or she should expect an UNBIASED opinion. If there is a standard in place then the standard should apply to ALL entries and not just a few. I also feel that the standard shouldn't be set so high that it cannot be obtained and 1/3 of a point is simply stupid to keep someone from getting the title. I've seen entries that have blatant vi sable problems and get a higher score than an entry that you REALLY have to nit pick to find something wrong. Judges that cannot separate their personal feelings either about the competitor or who's body is used in the mount from giving their UNBIASED opinion should remove themselves from judging.....Just my humble opinion....!
     
  5. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Thank you Rick. My comments don't hold much value as I am in the Peanut Gallery but they'll have a tough damned road discounting what you said. Sometimes I have to wonder if these guys truly believe that or they're simply trying to be "nice" so they don't fall victim to some "judge" down the road..
     
  6. Jerry Huffaker

    Jerry Huffaker Well-Known Member

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    This sums it up for me nicely. Dale, I'm pretty sure Rick wasn't speaking of the winners this year but of the judges who are past winners and the manner in which they placed some mounts this year. I agree with some here, two judges score a piece 90 and one an 89.67 and that denies the piece best in the world by .33 pts? That's just pure ego and has nothing to do with anatomy.
     
  7. v.fleming

    v.fleming New Member

    I understand the need for a standard as reflected in Antlerman's post because I have seen at least 3 "World Champion" pieces that I wouldn't let go out of my commercial studio.



    Rick, that is your opinion and yours only. To belittle at least 3 "World Champions" with this comment is degrading. If this is the way you feel fine, but why come on here and make these comments, keep it to yourself. Who are you to decide who is worthy of a World title. As far as judging goes, as long as people are judging there will be problems. We all know that when we compete. Just because you walk into the room and say this or that piece should win and it does not, doesn't mean the judges made a mistake. We all have opinions and most of the time we should keep them to ourself. If the system is broke, work to fix it, don't run people in the ground.
     
  8. Harry Whitehead

    Harry Whitehead I love to hunt Buffalos!!!!!

    The problem is Vincent, Rick is correct. What if the same standard that was applied to the Largemouth
    Bass category was applied to other categories. There wouldn't have been half of the Titles awarded. So what was the problem? Was it egos? Was the decisions unbiased? Was the standards applied equally? I think not. When a competitor is awarded a "title", he or she now is "in the know" and automatically is Judge and Seminar instructor. Should this competitor suddenly be put in a position to instruct and educate taxidermists simply based upon getting "lucky" so to speak based solely upon receiving a false opinion from a biased judge? I've seen this more than once and trust me, it will happen again.....
     
  9. Rick Carter

    Rick Carter Administrator

    Vincent, If I showed the 3 "World Champion mounts to you I don't think you would send them out of your shop either. One is just dated, but certainly not up to today's standards. One had hot melt glue visibly holding in a purchased jawset and another was ridden with anatomical problems that nearly approached a fatal flaw! You can't just add 3 inches to lengthen a muzzle without screwing up some major proportions! It shouldn't have even been in masters. It won over a mount that would qualify as one of the best mounts I have ever seen at ANY competition! Either the judge was way over his head or the "buddy plan"was in full force. As far as "Who are you to decide who is worthy of a World title" I think that judging experience for 20 years at State shows, World shows and National shows plus being a successful competitor myself should give me just a little insight to whether or not a piece is good. All of you keep bringing up "opinions" and that is where the problem lies. i do not judge on opinions. If I cannot prove the anatomical errors that exist on a mount, I do not count off. If calling out bad decisions for what they are is "running people into the ground" the problem will never be fixed.
     
  10. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    These are the threads and opinions a guy cannot win by posting. People will never agree with everyone, thats why this problem exists in competitions to begin with.

    Having competed, won, lost and seen my share of personal bs, AND having judged and seen my share of bs there as well, coupled with knowing these differences in opinions such as industry standards or judging these shows like a race, the best man wins...Id say I could write volumes. I could embarrass a lot people and name names in the process. I certainly have seen my share.

    I dont know why we sees the flaws, yet we are still drawn to compete, or still agree to judge. I guess in our hearts we still want to believe the sytem can work, even as it fails. I have complained much in the past, those who know me know. They also know I always add, "its hard to cry politics when you lose...yet not claim those same politics when you win"...

    Let me say this much though...There definitely ARE differences in winners, and winning peices, from show to show, year to year. Some better, sometimes not so much. It just is what it is.

    Id say it doesnt much matter what you think of yourself as the winner of a big award or title, you know why? Because therell be others who will be quick to judge and tell others how you think, whether you think it or not. "Oh he thinks hes so..." ...sound familiar? Sadly, it does to me, too.

    Yet we still want to believe. Maybe its because we are artists.
     
  11. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Harry, thank you too.

    Vincent, I don't believe you actually said that. You need to reread what you wrote. Rick judged at that level. Why is it "degrading" anyone when the truth is spoken. That pisses me royally when someone hides behind the idea that the truth may offend somone. If it offends them, then the people who feel like you are responsible for not having clued them in earlier. I may not play the game but I'm a very good observer and what Rick and Harry have stated is DEAD ON.
     
  12. rd@nt

    [email protected] New Member

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    The way to fix this is look at the score sheet each question? Is worth so much each box is worth so much say example each question 3/4 of a point cause my score sheet on it had 140 questions to the judge so how can they walk up to a piece and say this is a 90 or this is 89 and 1/2 and a perfect score is 100 my fish had very few boxes checked and they were very debatable example an easy cast but nice easy painting a sturgeon is basically gray and white or greenish and white or brown and white. Also when a judge checks a box he or she should be able to defend his or her claim. Just a Idea something has to change This will help? Randy Desormeau.
     
  13. RichMO

    RichMO Well-Known Member

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    Lets face it "It's the Human Factor". I don't enter because I am my own worst critique and another person that I think does great waterfowl mounts warned me about the politics. We all are partial to various mounts. I personally thought the two Cape Buffalo mount was great but they only got a second place (I'm not the judge) I did not like any of the Zebra Mounts and would not have given them any ribbon (I'm not the judge).... When a judge is out there each and everyone has their own perspective an picking the right judge is tough job. There is more than one person for each class because of the difference in opions. Just because you have been a judge, in the trade for all your life, created and completed sculpting and casting, and been an instructor does not make a person a good judge. Those that pick the judges do the best they can and if we don't stand with those making this decision the topic could lead into another NTA blog. It sounds like there are some disgruntled people on this subject I talked with Steve from New Zealand about this same subject after he brought it up in our conversation. Please support those making the decision on the judges and the scoring.
     
  14. v.fleming

    v.fleming New Member

    I agree Harry 100% with what Rick and others are saying. But don't belittle someone in the process, it is what it is. If someone is blessed with a title or not, we have to except that. No one should appoint themselves as judge to who should be worthy of a title. That is being bias, just like we are talking about what goes on in the comp room. There are judges who have chips on there shoulders and ones who don't. We all have come thru the ranks and we all have something to offer this trade. Some are great judges and some are great teachers. Not all World winners fall in this category, but they are winners. It is a shame for anyone to be 1/3 a point from a World title being given out and other titles being hand out when you think it might not happen. But this is back to each opinion we all have. I'm sure Larry does his best when picking judges, we may not agree with his choices, but if we compete, we have to except it. I have spoken with some of the judges from the latest World show and they were amazed at how different each person see's things. How do you fix that? That is the million dollar question.
     
  15. EA

    EA Well-Known Member

    Question: Is there only 1 judge for each category ?

    If so, would it help to have a panel of 3 similar to boxing. We all know sometimes all 3 have different views, but they may average closer to the truth.

    Stupid Question ?? ::)
     
  16. kbauman

    kbauman Active Member

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    EA, there are three judges used in each category of the world show.
     
  17. EA

    EA Well-Known Member

    Thank You. I'll clam up now 'cause I don't know squat.
     
  18. James Parrish

    James Parrish Tundra Swan...Its What's For Dinner!

    I look at this all completely different than most of you. I'm sure it is awesome to win a world title, but in the grand scheme of life what does it really mean? When the Supreme Judge looks at each of us on judgement day, I believe He will look at how we used the talent He gave us. I see state/national/world champs on this site and other taxidermy related sites who offer very little of themselves to other taxidermists. They get on advertising their products/services or showing how great their latest mount is, but won't give 30sec of their time to answer a simple question from someone who is aspiring to be where they are. I don't care if you're a world champ who scored a perfect 100 from all 3 judges or you just missed it by 1/3pt, if you don't help others and share what you've been given, you are unworthy of any title in my book.
     
  19. antlerman

    antlerman NTA Life Member #0118

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    Three judges Mike

    Which bares the question, which is better? a 90, 90, and a 91 or a 90, 90 and an 89?? Either way, you just made it or you just missed it. Border line at best either way. Sure it sucks, and I would be pissed too, but what about those years when a piece received scores of 96, 96, and 97?? Nothing border line there. And the second best piece scored 92, 92 and 92. Still a Blue, but still not a World Champion. I agree I think there are judges that shouldn't be judging, but at least in the area's that I compete in I didn't find that to be the case this year. I think Fred, Bryan, and Gene did a great job judging whitetails. What did surprise me thou was that the best professional whitetail was also better than the field in the masters division. Now who's fault is that?
     
  20. rd@nt

    [email protected] New Member

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    I agree with you. But God will use Winners as well as loosers. It is what you do with it. Every chance I get I tell People All you have to do is like I did confess your sins to Jesus and ask him into your life He will read your heart and will never leave you or forsake you. I felt IF I happen to win I could tell more and more people about Jesus. But this work better God always knows better. Just remember we have a enmy also that gets into us also and the battle goes on. That's why Paul said count it all joy when you fall into various trials and tribulations. Randy Desormeau