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Simple observation

Discussion in 'The Taxidermy Industry' started by Rick Carter, May 20, 2013.

  1. Doug Motgomery

    Doug Motgomery Active Member

    Look Tim when you guys went to the banquet I stayed at the hotel because I gave my ticket to someone that could not get one. And I went though all the mounts with a flashlight and I call it right, Jack Emery deer was the best deer in the room. I even told some guys there that there would probably not be a second place. The judges got it right..That deer in the pro division was good but there is noway good as Jacks.
  2. antlerman

    antlerman NTA Life Member #0118

    and I agree with that. Jacks was the best deer there, and that pro deer was the second best deer there. Between the two they had the field covered.

  3. Kyle Lakey

    Kyle Lakey Active Member

    To add to it it should be a majority vote on yes or no above or below a 90. If two judges say yes 91, 90 and one judge says no 88 it should be a yes the mount gets a score of 90.5 average not 89.66. And if two judges say 87, 89, and one judge says 93 it should be an 88 average not a 90.

    Basically you can put more weight on one judges score/decision over two.

    Not saying the buddy or enemy thing happens deliberatly but I'm sure it does. However my view is it also probably happens inadvertantly where one judge may not care for a certain individual or their artistic style and judge it tougher without even really knowing it by fixating on something wrong with it and missing what was done really well compaired to a judge who really likes someone or their artistic style and knows exaclty how much effort they may have put into a mount getting an precompetition idea in their head of what it "should" score before even seeing it in person and accidently over look things wrong because they are too concentrated on what they like about it. Things happen, sometimes deliberatly, sometimes accidently but a simple best 2 out of 3 majority vote yes or no with no judges talking anything over seems alot better than giving one of 3 judges a chance to F it all up. Once tallys are scored the judges find out which mounts are the highest scoring and eligable sub category pieces for debate on which should get the world title and let the conversing begin to decide.
  4. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    As a judge, I often chose a mount that I do not like, or dont find appealing. Its not about what I like, its which mount meets the criteria of the scoresheet.
  5. RichMO

    RichMO Well-Known Member

    While I agree with the current system of scoring and the decision of the judges I am a little perplexed on why when a competetor brings in a subject he has a card filled out with a number assigned to him and his name put on the card to be placed next to the mount. If this is recorded when the mount is brought in "Why do we put his name on the Card?" You are all correct in judges may recognize someones work but then again they may not.
  6. kbauman

    kbauman Active Member

    Cards with the competitors names are not place by the mounts until after the judging is complete and ribbons hung. A mount ID card with specimen and number is used up till that point.
  7. oldboar

    oldboar Taxidermy...do the impossible:)

    I thought I would throw in my two cents…

    I have heard the reference over preference crap for a long time.

    Take 10 people put them in a room with all having the same reference. Some people will never interpret reference properly... Some people have it some people don't. It is the human factor. Simple.

    It is only most recently that I started to do mounts for competition that I absolutely love! They have yet to be to a show, but probably will this summer and upcoming show year. I totally agree with Rick Carter in that creativity,artistic beauty, movement/form at times have fallen by the wayside in most competitions. I think it was a good friend of mine Brenda Duvall that said, do a piece that you enjoy! That you think rocks!!! I agree with that sentiment!

    Also I am awe of certain individuals that are able to put something together that is complicated, artistic, beautiful, mindboggling, and also have it score score well...there are a few who have that ability. I also know my limitations and I'm not one of them :). That shouldn't stop you from doing some of your own mounts... And totally enjoying the end result. Regardless if it won best of category or not! I've been through some recent therapy sessions that have allowed me to think this way… LMAO I'm being serious!

    I know I am in the process of doing life-size bear and a whitetail for myself that are both 15 years old..... All because I was too apprehensive of not scoring well enough with them in a show. Not isn't that just ridiculous! LMAO!
  8. antlerman

    antlerman NTA Life Member #0118

    a Life size Beer. Now thats one I can wrap my efforts around. LOL
  9. oldboar

    oldboar Taxidermy...do the impossible:)

    Damn iPhone… Sorry for the typos ha ha
  10. Nancy C

    Nancy C Well-Known Member

    I've been looking at this thread for a couple of days and I believe that there are a lot of valid observations scattered throughout it.

    As for judges being influenced by the "buddies or enemies" phenomena, well ... judges are human beings, too. I most sincerely HOPE that it doesn't happen intentionally, but I can only speak for myself. Friendship or animosity MUST take a back seat in a judging situation. A real friend would understand that, but then a real friend probably wouldn't want to put their friend in that position in the first place.
    For example: sharing a ride or a room with a judge?? BAD idea, unless you don't compete in their category. Even then, it's not a good idea. If you DO compete in their category then don't put them in that position. Period. Seriously, there must be another option.

    It is always going to be best if the judge has no clue as to who's work they are evaluating, but the real world doesn't work that way.
    I've been lucky in that regard, but a lot of judges haven't been. I don't envy them.

    Panel judging is a good idea if it can be afforded. Personally, I don't think the judges should discuss the pieces at all while they are being judged. Let the score sheets be averaged by a helper before the judges can compare notes. After that, if one judge differs widely from the others let them say why. Maybe they saw something or knew something that the others didn't, or maybe it was the other way around. Ideally the scores should be pretty close together, but "stuff happens." In a big show, ordinary mental fatigue can be a very real factor.

    Reference over preference?? Absolutely! (I wonder how this could even be a question.) After staring at birds for more than 50 years I STILL continue to learn things that I didn't know. In case of doubt, check it out! With the massive amount of reference that's now available online there is really no excuse for relying solely on preference.
    If the critter is anatomically capable of doing it, then it's potentially a valid pose - but is it the most realistic pose under the circumstances? If it's physically possible, but behaviorally improbable, then that becomes a more difficult decision. Reference, including video reference, helps a lot in these situations.

    Score sheets: they still need work because they aren't perfect. However, it's blastedly HARD to come up with a way to evaluate taxidermy which is both fair and consistent, especially since it has to be interpreted by a wide variety of people coming from very different backgrounds. I think that every judge has found themselves being forced to reward mounts that had played it "safe" and done well according to the score sheet while at the same time they had to penalize other mounts that had aimed for a higher level of difficulty and maybe not *quite* nailed it perfectly.

    It's very frustrating.
    How should artistic merit, technical difficulty and behavioral authenticity be evaluated against anatomical accuracy and fine craftsmanship on the tiny details?
    I think that's what it all boils down to, over and over and over again. Different people place their highest value on different things. It's what makes us human.
  11. ElkinsTaxidermy

    ElkinsTaxidermy www.ronelkinstaxidermy.com

    I think hat a lot of judges have lost the fact that we are performing TAXIDERMY!!! We can NOT build a live animal., but we can build a very good representation of a TAXIDERMIED specimen.
  12. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Have you ever done any research on the "Stockholm Syndrome"? Well along with it goes placing people "in charge" of others. Oftentimes this power is intoxicating and the person assumes a greater self-worth. The military has great checks and balances in place for training instructors (TI's and DI's). The recent news shows how easy it is for an entire group to get caught up in this. I think SOME judges get caught up in this. Not just taxidermy judges either. Referees and umpires get that way. That's why I like the panel that throws out a low score. Peer pressure can be very sobering an when the majority disagree with you, the syndrome is expunged. Suddenly you're not "in charge".
  13. MIKEO-PA

    MIKEO-PA Mike and Jen Olszanowski, pa

    i'm lost gonna sit here and eat my chocolate icecream because I like chocolate maybe the judge likes my icecream or maybe he prefers vanilla
  14. MIKEO-PA

    MIKEO-PA Mike and Jen Olszanowski, pa

    o yea dartondude im proud of you, don't no if that matters or not, you have one more than me now I better quit eating icecream and get my poop together!
  15. MIKEO-PA

    MIKEO-PA Mike and Jen Olszanowski, pa

    oh yea vince spellane I agree with you, look at me I made three posts in a row, my bad!
  16. BillFromPa

    BillFromPa Active Member

    Mike as long as it wasnt in the for sale section its all good! ;D
  17. antlerman

    antlerman NTA Life Member #0118

    Ok, I have nothing to add, but I do have a question......

    How many of you have ever studied with one of these judges and developed some of their techniques into you work?

    We are all stylist, but who's style have your Incorporated into your work?

    For me its..
    Bill Yox......I use his paint schedule on my nose and nictating membrane. And, he knows that I do.
    Joe Meder......I use his method around my eyes.
    Jim Hunsaker......I use his paint schedule on my ears.
    I also alter my faces as taught my Yox.

    I've never been judged by any of them, YET. But don't you think they would recognize their style in my work? I guarantee you they would. So we pass each other in the hall. Make small talk and catch up on life. How hard is it to figure out which mount is mine? The same goes for others.

    I guarantee I can pick out a Jody Green Mount out of a crowd. Same with one done by Hunsaker and Yox. Why, because they are all stylist and I've see alot of their works.
    OR they each have a different interpretation of what is accurate or just a different way to get there?

    I'm sure the same is true if you re a fish person, a bird person, etc.

    Dennis Harris is a stylist. We ALL walk into a room and know which mount is his. Some say Dennis falls short on some levels. Some are inspired by it.

    The same can be said about so many others.

    So, I say we're right back to the integrity of the judges and what THEY like.

    Fred Vanderberg talks about curb appeal. One year he gave one of my heads a blue and the other a red. The blue had better curb appeal.

    The human factor. No way to ever remove it. I like blondes, you like brunettes. I like movement with shock and awe and you like straight forward and 100% accuracy. Who's right?

    Is Big Foot real? Depends on who you ask? Do we know how deep the ocean is? I've never measured it.

    Is George Roof a real person?

    I guess my point is......we have to have Faith. Faith in our judges. Faith in their credibility. Faith in their judgement and be able to except their opinions. If we can't do that.....then stay home and watch another episode of Seinfeld.

    Competitions are to be fun. I've never won a title of any sort, but I still go and have fun. My granddaughter will soon be 5 and she plays T-ball. She runs and laughs and has a great time when playing. PLEASE don't tell her she will never be a Major Leaguer. PLEASE. I would just as well let her believe life is fun and that having friends is a good thing, so get together with them as often as you can. Someday they may not be here for you to play with.
  18. Harry Whitehead

    Harry Whitehead I love to hunt Buffalos!!!!!

    antler dude, I have faith in everyone until they do something that breaches my faith in them. I've never in my whole competing career contested a call made by the judges. Never. I just come back and compete again. Some things happened at this last World Show though that has me thinking.....thus losing faith. I've heard the same thing has happened with other shows and different people. It is a trend that I don't like. I'm not gonna mention any names, yet, but some of these issues need cleaned up. I think that these situations come about when someone gets thrown in the limelight without really "earning" that position. They don't know really how to make the call and thus they produce another breed of "professionals" that don't know how to make the right call either.....then it's a cluster f^%K!!!!
  19. antlerman

    antlerman NTA Life Member #0118

    Gottcha. Another case of last years winner being this years judge. Never fails to fail does it.
  20. kevin scott

    kevin scott New Member

    The part I don't get is not naming a world champion because the score wasn't high enough . In MY opinion, if the mount scored the highest in it's category ,it is the world champion .