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Fatal Flaw Q for Judges at State Shows

Discussion in 'The Taxidermy Industry' started by slwallace, Jun 26, 2013.

  1. slwallace

    slwallace New Member

    Thanks for the comments, but if you knew what had occurred in the past you would know this would not be an option.
    I was also asked not to call him and out of respect for my new president I did what he requested but I did choose to ask about the fatal flaw ruling on taxidermy.net.
    I believe I have the information I requested.
    Thanks to all
  2. pyeager1

    pyeager1 Active Member

    Man, I can't imagine something like this happening at our state show! ::) ;)

  3. rogerswildlife

    rogerswildlife Rogers Wildlife Taxidermy Tommy Rogers

    Yeah thats to bad . i was at that show and seen the mount myself and it was an awesome mount one of the best skunks iv seen !! Did it have a smell , yeah a little its a skunk not nothing to fatal flaw it for ! I realy hate that and just want to say that was my first time going to that show and enjoyed it very much and will be there next year .
  4. I happen to know a someone who has two pet skunks that by the way are descented and house broken, yep litter box etc. They still have a slight skunk smell, they are skunks!!!

    I have known Amy for many years, she has competed as we all know at all levels of shows. She knows how to mount and how to judge. The NTA score sheet has a place for DEDUCTIONS for smell., So Amy did the point deduction as per the standard and as per the score sheet.

    No if the mount had rotten meat smell that would have been different. But it did not have that!!! Yes AMY DID THE RIGHT THING!!
  5. Nancy C

    Nancy C Well-Known Member

    I think I fatal flawed one mount at the NTA show, and I had a long talk with the competitor to explain why I did it. It was a bird in the pheasant family (I don't want to ID the mount) and it was absolutely wringing wet. There was liquid caulk underneath the skin and the wings and tail were completely soft and loose. It wasn't just a little bit damp.
    Other than that, though, it was a gorgeous mount and I think it would have had a very good chance at a blue ribbon had it been dry. I really agonized over that mount, and yes - I DID ask the other judges for their opinions. You don't need to be a bird judge to tell whether a mount is wet or not.
    As I told the competitor, by not judging it I was leaving it wide open to be entered in any other show or even to be re-entered at the NTA if he wished. I had already asked about that before making my decision. Some state shows won't allow mounts that have competed at the Nationals but the consensus was that, since it wasn't judged, it didn't really compete.
    In my opinion, it would have been a travesty to award a horrible score to such a nice mount.

    ROCK. -> judge <- HARD PLACE.
  6. *

    * Liberalism IS A MENTAL ILLNESS !

    Stick you nose by some Coyotes I've seen at shows....

    WOW..... 8).
  7. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    Nancy, this is why we discuss these things! As I read your comment, I thought to myself how I strongly dissagreed with you...until you went on to explain your reasoning. Then I had to admit, that seemed like a very good decision in that situation. Its not always so black and white...welcome to the world of grey! Good call.
  8. Nancy C

    Nancy C Well-Known Member

    Thanks, Bill.
    Coming from another judge, that means a lot. Even today, years after the fact, I still get a feeling of horror when I remember that situation.
    I felt SO bad for that competitor ...
  9. Megan :)

    Megan :) Well-Known Member

    This is all very helpful information. I have not competed yet, but do plan to soon as my life settles down. Nice to hear these things from judges themselves.
  10. Jerry Huffaker

    Jerry Huffaker Well-Known Member

    That is an excellent perspective, I hadn't thought of that situation. Makes me think a little differently about it.

    What you said reminds me of a quote " If You mix black and white it makes gray, but from that point forward you can mix in all the white you want and it will still be gray"
  11. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    Jerry, good point. Nature has few blacks and whites, rights and wrongs, but it has plenty of range in between, as grey. If its needed, you can always add black though.
  12. Waterfowl Inc

    Waterfowl Inc New Member

    A competitors point of view, Oregon State show 06-2?-2013. Saturday mourning I think my best piece entered dosn,t get scored? Go to score sheet NICE BIRD AND THE FLIES LIKE IT TO !!! WHAT THE FU GET THE MESSAGE. One of my other entries won Best of Cat Waterfowl. I do not care what did I do wrong, what happened. another competitor tells me your speck smells. No way I am very thourough in my prep work. I am confused go over to the bird this thing dose not smell the judge got it wrong. Smell it like this some one says, put your nose here. behind the neck around the scaups. Son of a Bitch this thing smells like a moldy rag. OK so now I am embarrassed big shot waterfowl taxidermist 5 shows this year 2 wascos 3 best in cat 2 Du best of show multiple 90,S or better a few 80,s and a 78 in Idaho, I win best in state in Arizona and a WASCO mt first master comp, feeling pretty good show up to the Idaho show the following week with the same birds plus one. get my ass kicked. panic sets in one more show got to compete in Oregon and do well or it is going to be a long year. So I rush two specks 7 days before the comp shoot the with liquid nails to harden them up big mistake. The judge was wright I was wrong I failed the judge the other competitors and the competition itself. I paid alot of money to get to that show and time and it was worth it lesson learned. all and all we all had a good time with it people walking around holding there noses small discussions on what smells around here. and in a finale act of poetic justice I won in the auction a plunger with a wood duck head to bad it didn't have a speck head on it. Bottom line thank you all state ass who put theses shows together judges who share there knowledge and competitors for their effort of fair compitions, I wish we could get more support at the state levels in general. And so no body gets the wrong impression of me I still like to win can,t wait till next year and look forward to kicking ass at your state show next year. Strap it on Na braska I am coming for you.

    Attached Files:

  13. Bob Mead

    Bob Mead Mead Taxidermy Studio, LLC

  14. *

    * Liberalism IS A MENTAL ILLNESS !

  15. I have been on both sides, judged and being judged.

    A few years back my own state assoc. I told my wife when we took a deerhead and a duck to the state show, they would find some reason to disqualify the mounts, entered them about 10:00AM and at 1:30Pm I was told to remove them from competition.

    One judge said I have bugs between the panel and the deer. Well there was not fricken way!! that deer had been mounted 10 days and on the panel two days. Then they said my duck had bug holes in the wings, well maybe there was holes but the two holes to pissant called a judge found were hole from support wires.

    There were no bugs, the deerhead is still fine, the duck is still fine!! It was just a personal vendetta from a couple older members and they were scared they would loose control of their little clique in the assoc.

    A couple years earlier I had mounted a bobcat head for another taxidermist and he even entered it in our state show, I complained but it did no good.

    State shows suffer and suffer badly when the nepotism in competition exists. State assoc. if they care about the assoc and quality of taxidermy brought in should be sure this never happens.

    Judges have to remember if they cannot prove otherwise the benefit of the doubt goes to the competitor. I have judged show and proved with fresh specimens that the competitor was right and wrong.

    If a judge fatal flaws something it should still be judged or the competitor should be given their money back. The person paid for a critique and that is what the deserve!! That person needs the critique or they would not be there!.
  16. Waterfowl Inc

    Waterfowl Inc New Member

    John no disrespect to your impute, I do not have your experience so take this with a grain of salt. But just because you show up doesn't,t mean you deserve anything. At the novice level yes, But other than that all bets are off. There needs to be a certain level of expectation, if you do not meet that standard tuff try harder next time. I would feel cheated if the judges did not judge to a standard, and a standard that is at a level deserving that accomplishment. I am sorry if I went off topic a bit do not want to turn this into another how a judge should judge deal. I just thought it applicable to my experience to comment,just another hurdle on the road to the worlds. Hey Mead ever heard if you cant say any thing nice then shut the !!!! up. Be careful or I might start doing big game and move to Yuma.
  17. What I am saying is that every association should strive to make every show fair and square. I know thats hard to do but it certainly is worth trying. Then the person attending learns, the judge learns and then even the public learns and in the end our work gets better faster.

    We are coming on a day and age when the state associations should work to be strong and respected, that is one reason there are changes in the NTA going on!! Fatal flaw?

    Not like it was in the old days!!!!!
  18. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Waterfowl Inc, I don't get the "because you show up doesn't mean you deserve anything." Now if you run a show and actually believe that, your show is in trouble. State associations live and thrive on the contributions of those who come. Certainly it doesn't mean you have to give everyone a ribbon, but like John said, the person who entered paid a fee in expectations of some return - good, bad, indifferent. If a judge fatal flaws a piece, then the entry fee should be refunded. Since YOU refused the service he had expectations to receive and you elected not to, then the only honest thing to do is refund that entry fee.
  19. M.T.

    M.T. Active Member

    I agree with George!
  20. Waterfowl Inc

    Waterfowl Inc New Member

    OK so maybe I am missing what a taxidermy comp is? I think that the competitor has a responsibility to be at a certain level the state Ass is a competition. Not a class not a seminar the basis of the competition is to put your skills up for judgement. Places, awards and cash prizes are given. For me the opportunity to participate in world class seminars is my learning op. when the state show offers seminars that are bird related than that show is more valuable to me. The critique is not where I personally get the most bang for my buck. It is part of it. I have found that the fact that My work will be judged to a standard and maybe in some cases against the room, my att to detail has improved my attempt at understanding anatomy has become more important detail work composition basically pushing my abilities that is how my work has improved the added bonus of a know legable judge to confirm the pros and cons of your work is just that and nothing more. So here it goes, My opinion which is going to piss people off but sometimes you gotta say what the !!!!.If you do not compete your are not as sharp as a competitor and the gap in skill level will widen I am not saying that the only good taxis are competing but i think the best ones are or have. and i plan on being one of them. If the chips don.t fall my way no one owes me anything.