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Brisket Hair Loss

Discussion in 'Deer and Gameheads' started by vipermann7, Jul 30, 2013.

  1. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    Again, I dont mean to seem argumentative, but deer breed everywhere the same way, yet other areas of the country dont have those broomed/damaged hairs.
     
  2. 3bears

    3bears Well-Known Member

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    Bill, I hear what you are saying. I'm Ok if you don't agree with my theory. I haven't had the opportunity to mount any southern deer, so I can't comment on those, but from what I've heard they have a tick issue as well. Maybe it has something to do with ratio and the number of attempts to breed. This is a perplexing issue to me. I'm not 100% on my theory alone either. When a customer brings a buck in with this issue, I inform them that I don't know for sure what causes it. I do mention that it could be ticks or from breeding and we make a plan to either fix or leave as is. Most prefer to leave as is, thankfully. It may not look the best, but some get quite large and are all but impossible to fix and end up with an accurate looking brisket, for me anyway.
     

  3. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    Well Im glad you see Im just kicking ideas around too, and not 100% myself, although I tongue in cheek said ealier that the jury was in, lol. In western NY farm country where Id been the last 50 some years, we had extreme numbers of deer and seldom did I ever see those wear marks, thus my comments to the contrary concerning breeding etc.
     
  4. 3bears

    3bears Well-Known Member

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    Bill have you ever seen a doe give a buck a good swift double kick because he got to close before she was ready? Just another theory, this is where her feet hit. I've never been able to tell for sure because I only saw it happen once some years ago, and at that time this issue couldn't have been farther from my mind. I was only looking to get a clear shot. On a similar note, the area I hunt had a very abundant deer herd and until recently we were allowed up to 5 deer total. We didn't see anything like this then, but now the herd is nocked down due to predation and winter kills and hunters and it is showing up on occasion and seems dependent on when the buck is killed. This is just one of those crazy things that only taxidermists would discuss I guess.
     
  5. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    No I dont see that much, but again thats not to say youre wrong either.
     
  6. 3bears

    3bears Well-Known Member

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    If I am wrong, it won't be the first time or the last. :D It is interesting how folks get an idea in their head and believe it as gospel and won't even consider another idea. Oh well, I guess that is the human factor.
     
  7. I wish someone would figure out what does this. when I point it out to customers they always ask "what caused that?" I hate telling a customer "I don't know" I usually tell'em its from ticks, but I'm not too sure it is, I have looked for ticks in the brisket area and nearly never see any there, find lots elsewhere tho.
     
  8. 3bears

    3bears Well-Known Member

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    Well TMALONE a bunch of folks say you are right, and I say you might be. Nobody but us taxidermists are likely to look into this issue, because it doesn't seem to affect the deer at all.
     
  9. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    Down where I am now, the deer seem to be marked up everywhere, very thin and beat up hair coats. I dont mean thin as in early season, or southern...but scarred to hell. 3bears, I hear ya, I used to swear it was ticks, but...maybe keds. Heck I just dont know for sure.
     
  10. antlerman

    antlerman NTA Life Member #0118

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    Deer bite at the ticks and anything else that irritates them leaving the damaged hair behind. They don't have fingers to pick with or nails to scratch with, so they bite. Why that area has such a high concentration of ticks I do not know, but it does. Some come in with the damage, some come in with infestation, but never the less, it's ticks and those that bite at them damage their hair. That's why the brooming off you see, but actually it is bitten off.
     
  11. dablaw

    dablaw Member

    Like I said before and most seem to sort of be saying the same thing..This area is very hard for a deer to groom..Same in my donkeys,horses,cows, or any other livestock..Even my goats can;t get to it right..To get to that area to groom it they would have to raise there head up then stick out there neck and then lower there head..Just not going to happen...I feel fairly confident in telling customers that it is an irritated spot(Hot spot) that gets ticks and then the deer attempt to rub it on whatever the heck they can to get it to stop itching..Subsequently breaking and rubbing hair...I really don't think there is any huge mystery, just this spot is hard to reach from every angle, hooves wont do it either..so they just rub it like crazy as the irritated spot itches..It drives my critters crazy to the point where they get pissed off...lol..Deer and other livestock also get two spots on there back, one on each side, right before there butt where they reach back biting and scratching...Most of my critters scrape with there top teeth..well the ones that have top teeth...lol...Just my thoughts...
     
  12. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    As for the hair damage just before the hip of captives, I can explain it with deer in captivity, or many animals in high wire fence. They very often have misaligned or crooked/broken teeth from hitting the wire when spooked, and when grooming at that angle, they can really tear up their hair. That IS something I can base on my captive deer experience.

    I havent used my captive deer in this discussion to this point, as I feel theyre low stressed and medicated, and seldom show ANY signs of ticks, keds or much of anything else...except for a couple showing the mange we mentioned earlier. I often wonder if bucks show more tick/ked loads in rut when theyre really stressed and vulnerable as they are.
     
  13. 3bears

    3bears Well-Known Member

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    Well, I guess the jury is still out after all. It seems we all have a little different theory, all may have a possibility of being at least partially right. I still have never seen a deer groom or attempt to groom this area in question, but have seen them groom or bite or rub just about every other area they can. This is reason behind my theory.
     
  14. vipermann7

    vipermann7 New Member

    TMALONE: I might just print this thread off and give it to customers to explain to them why that hair damage occurs!

    Thanks for a great discussion. I don't have anything to add, but don't want to be the guy that starts a thread then disappears, so thought I would at least leave another reply.

    I forget who said it now, but someone made the comment that no body else will likely look into this issue because it does't seem to affect the deer's health, and I agree. Aside from us taxidermists, there probably isn't anyone else that gives a hoot. But I personally am going to keep digging around for information and see if I can't find anyone else that might have some ideas. Maybe someone should give a shout out to Charlie Alsheimer! He has probably spent more time in the woods with deer than most groups of us combined.
     
  15. Kyle Lakey

    Kyle Lakey Active Member

    What I meant about the breeding complicating it possibly is that when you get deer where the hair is gone down to the skin and not just broke like most are. I think its a possibility that with heavy infestation of ticks and the loosening of hair follicles due to damaged skin from heavy tick biting and feeding the action of breeding could pull the hair out leaving these bald spots. I don't think breeding has anythign to do with rub spots because those are broken hairs and breeding won't cause that. Like I was saying ive had many deer I can comb all those ticks and eggs out and alot of hair comes out very easily with it sometimes. Its just an idea I had trying to compair why bucks have it compaired to does.
     
  16. Kyle Lakey

    Kyle Lakey Active Member

    Yeah I commercial fish salmon in alaska for 2 months in the summer and just got back last week. Thats why I've been absent.

    Its nasty. We are pretty close to an epicenter for one of the worst tick areas in the country so they can get horrible. I'll have to take a pic some time of combing one out. Sometimes you can also take a fur comb and brush the underside of the neck and chest and its like popcorn flying off them with engorged ticks.
     
  17. 3bears

    3bears Well-Known Member

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    Kyle, you say that the hair is broken and breeding won't cause that, but to the best of my knowledge, ticks won't cause broken hair. I have had plenty of deer with this but cannot remember one that was completely bald in this area, just the guard hairs broken. If time allows, I plan to look into this more this fall. Spending 2 months in Alaska sounds fun but the ticks sure do not.
     
  18. kurt

    kurt Member

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    [​IMG] Not sure if I posted the pic correctly but that broken hair in the brisket is from deer scratching ticks off with their back hoof. Ticks focus on that area due to all the tiny blood vessels that are there as well as they get in behind the front shoulder in that dip to protect themselves. Thats why you have marks on the shoulders and your clients are saying they didnt drag the deer very far. They pretty much scratch like a dog would. If you look at the back hoofs their is a cream color line around the outside of the hoof. I believe its from rubbing. I've have so many capes this year with these rubs that im wondering if the drought has something to do with more ticks attaching themselves to deer. not sure. My question is when the rub marks occur in the summer does the deer's winter hair cover these affected areas so maybe that why we dont see it when your skinning your deer and it shows after the tanning process ? Anyway thats my theory on it. Kurt
     
  19. 3bears

    3bears Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Kurt, that pic definitely has me reconsidering my theory. The hair in that area would break in that area if continuously scratched that way. The hoof would push against the grain of the hair. I figured if we kept this going someone would come up with a good answer, with proof even, not just cause somebody said so. But I still have to ask, what about does? I have a couple coming up, both mature does, one early and one late season. I don't remember them being rubbed, will definitely pay attention.
     
  20. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    Again, I hate to be the guy, but the deer scratches a lot of places just like that, all day, and we just dont see that same locallized hair damage elsewhere. Also, we arent saying the tick damages the hair, I think many of us are thinking its the deer rubbing against stuff that is breaking the hair.

    Heres another thing that gets me about breeding marks and other rubbing. I cant explain it, but I know it makes me doubt some other theories...those rubs seem to be on either side of the neck, and NOT on the higher spot of the front of the neck, like one would assume. It definitely seems to be in that lower groove between the center mark, low in the brisket.

    Next...lol.