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Self tan question.

Discussion in 'Deer and Gameheads' started by 8Point, Jan 17, 2014.

  1. Just cause a hide is washed of blood and dirt, doesn't mean that a pickle is clean, nor does a clear pickle. There is an exchange of compounds from the skin in a pickle, they are left behind when you pull the skin.
     
  2. antlerman

    antlerman NTA Life Member #0118

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    I was raised without a father. I had a step father from age 5 on, but other than a provider, he lacked love and directions. My Grandfather was my identifying male roll model in my life. A hard working man from whom I learned much about grit and survival. Through out my life, I guess I have often looked in the eyes of other men for some sort of fathering guidance. I've been on this site for a good number of years now. In the beginning, I too had my own struggles with George. But I learned in life to fight back. More times than not, a bully is only a bully because you let him be one to you. I learned that I will either have to fight or get beat up. I don't like getting beat up, so I learned how to fight. So how do you fight with someone who is as intelligent as George? By becoming somewhat of an equal to him INTELLIGENTLY, or as close as is humanly possible.. The day some of you learn to speak intelligently with KNOWLEDGE, George will become your best friend, and the best damn dad anyone could ever have hoped to have ever had. If you haven't gotten there yet with George, then stop being stupid, and start listening. George is the best asset this site could ever have or hope to have. If you've got a problem with that, then take your cry towel and go home. You ain't tough enough for the education you could have gotten here from one Mr. George Roof. And that's a fact Jack. Knowledge is power. George has empowered more on this site with his knowledge more-so than any other. You just have to be smart enough to listen.
     

  3. duxdown

    duxdown New Member

    Can we get an AMEN!!! ;D George knows I sure respect him. I to thought at first lord what an ass, then it dawned on me to open my eyes and remember that he is far wiser and done more than I may ever accomplish so I need to shut up and listen. And if I disagree to have enough respect to, one keep my mouth shut or educate myself and tell him in a way that maybe it might make him think differently. But lord I haven't found him really wrong yet but one of these days ;) hahaha. We love your old butt George :p keep it up.
     
  4. pikes peak

    pikes peak 2011 deer i mounted

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    lets back up a little here . I don't recall any one not respecting Delawares advice on here. hes like a cop . you respect him , but that don't mean you have to like him . and Delaware I seen your xmas cards . you color like crap . lol also 8point don't say you wouldn't wanna tick them off . it's a sign of weakness in here .
     
  5. 8Point

    8Point Member

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    Got it....! ;D
     
  6. Jonesen

    Jonesen Refuse to follow

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    This answer still does not answer why you do not presalt for krowtann.. still no clear answer on this...
     
  7. Jonesen

    Jonesen Refuse to follow

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    I'm just trying to figure this out because they just ate TIMBUCK alive for saying he does not salt dry his hides before and also that he uses formic acid but yet krowtann is just that yet NO presalting what so ever and not only are you using formic acid but it says no need to check pH? And Krowtann is a good product if used correctly. Like antler man said some swear by it.

    I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong I'm not challenging anyone and I don't agree with reusing pickle I just thought this is a great time to learn how Krowtann works..
     
  8. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    We "ate" TIMBUCK simply because he was misspeaking and he later explained what he meant (which I had no issue with). There are many trains of thought on this issue. Bruce Rittel maintains that a hide needs to be dried and rehydrated to tan well. Glen Conley (and I respectfully disagree). Salt is a dessicant and it draws the fluids out of the skin. When a hide is no longer dripping wet, what purpous does extra salt serve. The hide is depleted of fluids and is not "thirsty" to have them replaced. Just like TIMBUCK, when my hide stops dripping fluids, I'll enter it into a pickle. I, too, have never had an issue with that. I STRONGLY SUSPECT that drying a hide hard comes to us from another era that fur takers didn't have ready access to chemicals and the hides were stored for months, if not years at a time. All hides were virtually "hard" when tanneries got them. Now like many things in this industry, that's just conjecture and MY OPINION. You can take that for what it's worth, but again, I've never had an issue with a hide that had stopped dripping.
     
  9. antlerman

    antlerman NTA Life Member #0118

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    I'm nothing more than a hack taxidermist. Truth is, I suck at running a fleshing machine. So badly that I sold my flesher and send all my skins out. 10 miles down the road. Pretty convenient. I'm not a chemist by any stretch. But what makes sense to me with some degree of logic, is the idea of making a skin thirsty. Think of it as a sponge. To what degree does that sponge need to be dry? Dry enough to absorb. Does it need to be rock hard dry? No. Only for storage, but spill some water on the floor and then use a sponge to clean it up. Wring the sponge out, it will still be wet, and go back after some more. Yep, it will still absorb. Same principal, I do believe. But I do have a hard time buying into the idea of taking a raw skin introducing it to say Krowtann, and expecting it to come out as a viable tanned skin. Without the absorption factor taking place, I find it hard to except as being a viable process.

    From my own experience. I did for a minute, use a pressure washer for fleshing my skins. I omitted the salting process as was recommended, and went straight to the Krowtan. BAD move. The skins were saturated with water, and couldn't absorb the tanning/pickling solution. Lost 6 capes. went back to salting and problem solved. I had to displace the water. That was/is my problem with some of these shortcuts, and lack of directions provided by some of these miracle drugs. There are just some things that can't be compromised. Making a skin thirsty is one of them. Monitoring the ph is another.
     
  10. Tanglewood Taxidermy

    Tanglewood Taxidermy Well-Known Member

    I salt my skins hard so I can store them that way. No other reason to, as was said earlier once the fluids stop draining, why keep going, unless you want to send them out or store them. I believe that Krowtann is "supposed" to be easy. Salting is an extra step the the maker decided was not necessary. Just like he decided that the extra step of checking pH wasn't necessary. Just like he decided a separate pickle and tan baths wasn't necessary. He decide that what can be easier than skinning, into the tan and neutralize, he would have eliminated the neutralizing bath if he could have, then wash. DP would be easier. Skin, shave, DP, mount. Krowtann is nearly as easy, you just have to wait four days.
     
  11. Tanglewood Taxidermy

    Tanglewood Taxidermy Well-Known Member

    I just realized that I didn't answer you question. Salt draws untannable "things" in the hide out with the fluids. Not salting and getting those " things" out, makes your pickle less efficient as the hide is full of those "things" that the pickle has to get around, break down, etc. That is my best guess. I just figure why not salt and not worry about it. A very little investment in salt and time can't hurt and it might just help. I'm sure there is a scientific reason for all of this, but I don't have it.
     
  12. Jonesen

    Jonesen Refuse to follow

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    OK so you did two things wrong. First you did not follow the directions of the Krowtann exactly and you used a pressure washer to flesh your hides. You had 6 bad capes because of operator error no fault to the Krowtann.

    It says to only rough flesh cutting any large meat and fat off then straight to the krowtann for I think like 3-4 hours then complete the fleshing then back in the tan for some length of time. Not 100% on the exact times I personally don't use it.

    I also don't like the idea of using a pressure washer to flesh a cape without salting it. Just because your forcing all that water into the hide.
    But as hard as it is for you to accept krowtann does work very well when used properly. Without presalt and without pH monitoring.. and I get it, I do. I honestly do not like the fact that they skip the presalting. I too feel it is a very important step. BUT I will not tell someone that it does not or should not be done because it can be and does produce a good quality tan.
     
  13. Jonesen

    Jonesen Refuse to follow

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    I agree with everything you said tangle wood..

    I was hoping Mr Roof know that scientific answer so then everyone would know why you can skip salting combine pickle and tan and skip pH monitoring with a solution that will never be any higher than 2 and still get a quality tanned hide.
     
  14. AZ~Rich

    AZ~Rich " Africa" never fails to satisfy

    I imagine if the salt concentration is appropriately strong and the duration of the exposure to the salt is appropriately long enough, (say 24hrs) then you should reach the full extent of the desired effects of salting. Granted, it will most likely not be completely dessicated by 24 hrs, but the two effects of salting you want to occur should be achieved.

    First, through contact with the ultra strong osmolarity of pure salt or concentrated brine, H2O will rapidly move out of the cells, leaving them shrunken and collapsed. This action will help "set the hair" by removing moisture (H20) from the base of hair follicles. this is important because not having moisture there protects the Keratin (a fibrous protein) that surrounds the hair follicles there from bacterial enzymes which breakdown keratin's peptide bonds. Removing moisture from the tissues quickly with salt insures the keratin stays intact, preventing a loosening in the follicle and tightens the follicles by dehydrating the surrounding collagen.

    The other important effect of the salt is to Denature destructive proteins which is a different process than the hydrolysis of proteins. Hydrolysis of proteins refers to hydrolyzing or breaking apart the fundamental peptide bonds which forms all protein structures out of the Amino Acid based "peptide chains". Peptide chains are formed this way through peptide bonds and can be linked together to form strong Structural proteins (i.e., Collagen, Elastin, Keratin) or Globular proteins which function as Enzymes, Hormones, Cell & Basement Membranes, etc. Peptide chains are principal building blocks of proteins and can be folded, twisted, layered wrapped, etc to form these various protein structures which relate to their function. Various linkages (chemical bonds) are formed between these layers, folds strands, etc. to define the shape, function and sometimes the strength of the protein.

    Denaturation involves un-folding the protein's secondary, tertiary or quaternary structure which are a result of these bonds. When a protein is denatured it looses its biological activity. Concentrated salt acts to denature or break down these secondary bonds so that the globular proteins like enzymes are rendered dysfunctional which means salting halts any further enzymatic action. Acid, urea, base and high temperatures also will cause denaturation. Collagen, the main structural component of skin, is a fibrous protein that consists of three chains wrapped around each other. Inspite of looking like an alpha-helix, collagen does not have any secondary structure - the individual chains don't form into regular folding patterns of their own. It does have quaternary structure in the way the three chains are held together.

    Therefore, denaturing by salting should not affect collagen's inherent strength. Of course during the tanning process (such as with chromium sulfate), the collagen protein chains (twisted into fibers) are cross-linked together by strong covalent chemical bond complexes formed through hydroxol, oxo and sulfato bridges onto which the ionized carboxyl groups from the collagen proteins enter, forming the ligands or cross-linking.

    Drying the skin after enough salting certainly will help with storage and transport as long as it is fully dried and not allowed to rehydrate from a moist environment. This is a concern because there are certain Halobacteria which are able to thrive in high salinity environments. If allowed, these Halobacteria can still cause hydrolysis of peptide bonds in follicle's keratin of the salted skin provided the moisture conditions are right. Biocides used in the process should combat this.

    So in a nutshell, appropriate salting for at least 24 hrs should be enough to: (1) denature those undesirable enzymatic proteins (bacterial or lysosomal) halting their functionality, (i.e., hydrolysis or breakdown of hair follicle proteins like keratin); and (2) dehydrate skin tissues by pulling out most of the water from the epithelial cells thus shrinking structural tissues around follicles, importantly leaving unfavorable conditions for most bacteria to exist.

    A third affect of the salt/dehydration which might be considered is the ease with which the skin will accept rehydration with acidic pickling solutions which will further denature any proteins which have not been via salt.

    Ok, I went overboard!!
     
  15. Tanglewood Taxidermy

    Tanglewood Taxidermy Well-Known Member

    Not overboard at all. That's what I was trying to say. I like the scientific explanation much better. That makes it sound as though salting first may give you a better end product tan.
     
  16. Jonesen

    Jonesen Refuse to follow

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    Not overboard at all! Great read. So what you basically said is the pre salting is an extra step to help the pickle do its job of denaturalization. Not 100% necessary but definitely worth the extra effort. And salting would be a great help with an "iffy" hide when using Krowtann.
     
  17. Jonesen

    Jonesen Refuse to follow

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    Yeah just read that again. Thanks for taking the time to type that.
    So the salt is not doing anything the pickle wouldn't do other than making the hide "thirsty". But that's not necessary because the acid will still break down the protein cells. Think of it this way. Take your sponge soak with water then put that sponge in a pickle for a few hours. Then pull the sponge outlet drip dry then squeeze the remaining liquid in a container and check the pH. I bet the sponge still would have passed pickle through it even though it was full of water when placed in the pickle.

    Also another question.. At what pH level does denaturalization occur in a pickle?
     
  18. Tanglewood Taxidermy

    Tanglewood Taxidermy Well-Known Member

    From what I have read on here and in Taxidermy Today is that an iffy skin should go straight to the pickle. The drying time and rehydrating can cause more problem than straight to the pickle. I have read that the pickle is your "safe place". I've never had a cape so iffy that I didn't think it would survive the salting. I have had capes that I rejected because they were beyond iffy. So I have no experience with it, it's just what I read.
     
  19. antlerman

    antlerman NTA Life Member #0118

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    NO.....You are wrong about me doing something wrong. I spent several hours on the phone with Brian Harness. He advocated pressure washing and going straight to Krowtan. I followed his directions. And THAT's why I became so pissed. Great post AZ. Thank You Very Much for your input.
     
  20. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Very well said AZ. Thanx.