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Master Fish Reproduction?

Discussion in 'Fish Taxidermy' started by Timjo, May 2, 2014.

  1. Timjo

    Timjo Active Member

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    This is one of the reasons I don't like to sell my blanks.
    NDTA competition rules for fish reproductions in the Masters Division states fish need to be completed and viewed 360 degrees. Rule number 6 states all entries must be completed by the competitor unassisted.

    Here's an award winning mount from the March show by "not me".

    [​IMG]

    I sold this blank to Steve, which is the only fish you can view 360 and he did a great job with it, but I would think I assisted by making the mold of this perch.
    Is there that much gray area in the rules or is this bending or breaking the rules? Either way, my opinion would be that if it's in a Masters Fish Reproduction category you should have proof YOU molded the fish.
     
  2. Monty Artrip

    Monty Artrip Active Member

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    I agree with you Timjo. And thats why anytime I have entered a repro I take pics of my mold and unfinished blank and place in an evelope next to mount. Leaves no doubt that I cast the fish.
     

  3. amigo

    amigo No habla Espanol

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    Yeah, there is no official taxi detective on site to verify and keep all on the up and up. We rely on competitors morality and sadly the human element shines through at times. The rules need to be very clear like "competitor must mold and cast all parts" instead of the Rule 6 wording mentioned above to help eliminate confusion. Although the wording they used is really not that confusing.

    congratulations on producing an award winning blank---if you continue selling them there will be more awards to come.
     
  4. wctaxidermy1

    wctaxidermy1 Member

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    Rule number 6 I'm pretty sure States the same in professional. Its no different than someone using a Mohr jawset its a state show not world's I don't see any issues, I bet he didn't make his eyes either. Uh oh!
     
  5. Kerby Ross

    Kerby Ross KSU - Class of '83; U.S. Army - Infantry (83-92)

    Unless ...........

    Most states specify that in the Master Division in the Reproduction Category that all reproductions must be molded and casted by the competitor while in the Professional Division they can purchase a blank made my someone else. Most states specify that a competitor can't enter a piece that was done while in training with another taxidermist. And if assisted by another competitor then it will be entered into the Combined Artists Category.


    :)

    Kerby...
     
  6. Kerby Ross

    Kerby Ross KSU - Class of '83; U.S. Army - Infantry (83-92)

    I just read ...........

    I just read their rules : http://www.ndtaxidermistsassociation.com/Rules___Regulations.html

    And it does not state that the competitor must mold and cast their own reproductions.

    Arizona used to be this way until a couple of years ago when I pushed to have the taxidermists in the Master Division to cast and mold their own reproductions (fish & reptiles) for the Reproduction Category.

    So I see no infraction with this mount in this competition.

    The problem is the state competition rules. If you don't like the rule then try and have it changed.

    :)

    Kerby...
     
  7. Timjo

    Timjo Active Member

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    USA
    All good comments. The problem to me is the word "Master".
    The only thing judged in this piece was the perch. I assisted by molding the perch and it was "painted" by the competitor, "Master" Fish REPRODUCTION? NDTA allows this and I'm assuming other states do also. I'm wondering if Starfish gave their award to that mount knowing the fish was not molded by the competitor?

    If you are going to take on the respected title of a Master and have it mean something in our industry then yes, the rules need to be changed and specific. Otherwise these competitions really won't mean much.

    Best regards,
    Tm
     
  8. amigo

    amigo No habla Espanol

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    Amen to that.
     
  9. Kerby Ross

    Kerby Ross KSU - Class of '83; U.S. Army - Infantry (83-92)

    Most .........

    Most states stipulate that in the Master Division that you have to mold and cast your own reproduction fish/reptile. There aren't too many states left that do not have this requirement. Obviously North Dakota is one of them. The UTA, NTA and World Show have this requirement in the Master Division on reproductions ..... as well as most state shows.

    The "assist" part refers to more than one person doing the piece (Combined Artist piece). And buying a blank made by someone else and painting it does not fit under that in any competition that I aware of. Just like any other reproduction part in taxidermy (bird heads, fish fins, game head noses, etc.) They are allowed to have commercial reproduction parts in the Professional/Open Division but in the Master Division they must do their own molding and casting ..... except North Dakota lol.

    I have sold fish blanks that were used in state competitions as well and I am proud when they do well.

    I also see my reproduction prickly pear cactus pads in a lot of mounts at shows ....... and some have even won BEST HABITAT AWARD! :)

    :)

    Kerby...
     
  10. squid

    squid hunt hard or go home

    Timjo- well there needs to a line drawn to were commercial parts are used. Yes you assisted by molding fish. But so did Joe meder or Jody green and all other sculptors they assisted by sculpting forms to be used. Most eyes used are produced by someone else and ear liners.... the list goes on.
     
  11. Bryan Russell

    Bryan Russell Active Member

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    Never competed and never will, but A "master" title should mean everything from scratch by competitor including the eyes...
    Just my 2 cents.........
    Kinda like people selling custom replicas that are Arp replicas........never got that one either! custom is custom! :eek:
    Custom production: Custom production refers to the manufacture of a product according to specific customer needs. The good is designed with a personal touch aimed at suiting the needs and wants of a specified target market
     
  12. wctaxidermy1

    wctaxidermy1 Member

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    I get your point Tim but I personally don't like the way you handled it. Maybe you could have just called and talked to Steve about it. You came off like you just wanted to discredit him and his awards. He obviously knows the rules or wouldn't have done it. You could have posted just asking an opinion instead of the mount and his name.
     
  13. Timjo

    Timjo Active Member

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    That's what I'm saying.

    The ones that try to justify using other artists' products in a masters category struggle with a higher level of accomplishment. I guess my definition of a master of a particular category is higher than most.

    As far as the assist part, I talked with a high ranking NDTA official, and there was no mention of "does not fit under that" thinking. The piece was a combined effort. Whether I attached the fish to the bucket or I made the blank - it's the same thing.

    You can ride the fence, play the devil's advocate or argue till you're blue in the face. This is only my opinion.


    WC, I have talk to steve about this. When I sold him the blank I ask that he not use it in a competition. I did not want to bring that up, but you made me. I have nothing against Steve, he does fabulous work, this is not about him, it's about the system.
     
  14. wctaxidermy1

    wctaxidermy1 Member

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    If you already talked to Steve and had previously asked him to not compete with it then I stand corrected. I have not competed or even attended a NTA or WTC nor looked at the rules but in other divisions gameheads, lifesize, etc in masters are you required to mold, sculpt your own forms, eyes, etc.? If not is this what your getting at Tim not just the reproduction category but master division as a whole needs to be done completely by the competitor?
     
  15. Timjo

    Timjo Active Member

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    For the highest level "Masters" in my mind, Yes, all across the board. Amendments will always be used in commercial and professional work but when it comes to the Masters, which is the highest level of recognition, there must be parameters set in place. The artist must be challenged to their highest capacity in order to keep the heart of this profession alive!
     
  16. Kerby Ross

    Kerby Ross KSU - Class of '83; U.S. Army - Infantry (83-92)

    No........

    **but in other divisions gameheads, lifesize, etc in masters are you required to mold, sculpt your own forms, eyes, etc.?**

    No.

    :)

    Kerby...
     
  17. i never remember anything about not competing??? copying was the only thing i remember... i talked to you on the phone about a bluegill i wanted to use for on top of bucket also for our state taxidermy show..
    also Garry Senk was aware before i got my score sheet that i did not cast/mold the top fish but did the other 5..i told him to make any adjustments to scores or awards..
    you do have some unbelievable fish blanks tim.. and if i were you would be markiting them to a big company.
     

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  18. amigo

    amigo No habla Espanol

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    A true master in my opinion should be making everything on the entry from the forms/blanks to the eyes to the habitat materials and base composite. Unless that defines a master of masters.

    With so many folks molding and casting replicas today I would think all states would have no problems adapting the rules for that division.
     
  19. squid

    squid hunt hard or go home

    So then the masters better be sculpting their own forms for deer and making their own ear liners and casting their deer eyes? Or how about sculpting their lifesize grizzly bear is that what you are saying amigo.
     
  20. 1fish2fish

    1fish2fish Well-Known Member

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    Should Steve have molded the bucket?

    I get what you are saying, and frankly I agree that the rules in the Masters category for reproductions should include molding the replica being judged (you don't enter a skin mount fish you painted but was mounted by someone else in the masters category anywhere). Problem is, again, lack of consistency in rules and the fact that these competitions are subjectively judged and no matter what folks say, there is no empirical standard (despite what the world championships attempts) for judging.

    Then there is the question, what defines a master. Someone who can flat out paint could take a commercially available replica and produce a "nicer" or "more desirable" finished piece of art than someone else who can expertly mold and cast a replica and make their own eyes; in that case what matters more, the replication process or the finished product? Depends on what's being judged and what the rules stipulate, right, but I know which I'd rather have on my wall.

    The issue I see with regard to this post is that the blank used is NOT commercially available to EVERYONE, so the playing field, so to speak, was not necessarily equal to all participants. I don't fault anyone, I just point this out. Putting the apparent misunderstanding and what not aside does NOT alter this fact, and it isn't necessarily something that triggers a red light without some consideration; but when you think about that, to me, it's a problem.

    Best, Scott