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Competition pieces in multiple state shows....opinions

Discussion in 'The Taxidermy Industry' started by wcwsscott, Jul 31, 2014.

  1. TIMBUCK

    TIMBUCK Active Member

    Man you guys have missed MY point completely. I have no issue what so ever if a person wants to take his piece to as many shows as he wants and wins enough bling to squat his truck. I have no problem competing against anyone that does this as long as that where it stops. I would love to compete against a world or national champ. It would be fun and a great learning experience. Plus I love to see top shelf taxidermy work.
    Where my problem lies is when they get a critique and a score sheet that lists everything a previous judge found wrong with said piece and then taking the piece back and tweaking accordingly and re-entering in another competition. And some do it time and time again. Is this what it's come to?

    Antlerman you talk about running scared. Ppfft. Who's really the one running scared? I'm not scared to get beat by someone who has more skill. As a Matter of fact it happens often.
    I'll take a piece straight from my shop any day any time and put it in any competition. In masters. And Take my licks OR not accordingly.
    What you won't ever see me do is enter a piece, tweak based on what a judge says, re-enter tweak it and re-enter it again.
    I would get 0 personal satisfaction out this.
    I want to know what I,ME by myself using only the knowledge I have gained over the years of competing and from talking with fellow taxidermist and put that into my work.
    A real twist to my story is that a lot of the guys that I know doing this are some of the ones I look up to the most in the industry.. That gets a little tricky. Like I said before it is legal but it is almost impossible to call it fair or to compete against.
    Heck I think I'll hire Bill Yox,Mr.Vincent and Tommy Hall and maybe 1or 2 other notables to come stand in my shop and look over my shoulder as I am mounting and finishing my next piece so they can point out everything wrong. I should do well. What do you think?
    I think it has gotten to the point that we are loosing the true meaning of competition.
    It has become more about winning.
     
  2. TIMBUCK

    TIMBUCK Active Member

    Almost 3,000 views and only 83 responses. That's interesting.
    I'll see y'all later. Thanks for the conversation and debate. It's all good. I gotta go. I'm working on my next competition piece.
     

  3. Cole

    Cole Amateur Taxidermist

    I've never understood restricting anyone from attending your show. Here in MO we welcome anyone and everyone, and our association is stronger for it. States that have rules to eliminate certain competitors are suffering for it. In Kansas, you have to be a resident of KS to win their awards. What? In NE or IA you can't enter a piece that is over 18 months old. Huh? In IL you can't enter a piece if it did well at a larger show. I just don't get it. The stronger the entries are in your show the stronger your show is. Brian is right, we had a couple Nat. winners show up at our show last weekend....and it made our show that much stronger....and neither of those pieces won the Breakthrough. It's not that you win people, it's who you beat. I've won enough awards by default to know they mean a lot more when you actually had to beat someone good to get them.
     
  4. michael p.

    michael p. Getting better with age :)

    Many times the state shows occur AFTER the World Show.
     
  5. antlerman

    antlerman NTA Life Member #0118

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    Antlerman you talk about running scared. Ppfft. Who's really the one running scared? I'm not scared to get beat by someone who has more skill. As a Matter of fact it happens often.


    Tim, you seem to be personalizing an awful lot here. I wasn't talking about you or anyone else in particular. Only in general.

    This is a water cooler discussion. When rules are made they have to be made fairly for all. Maybe you missed my point.

    I see nothing wrong with someone chasing awards. If a person finds fault with that, then beat them. That simple.




    Antlerman you talk about running scared. Ppfft. Who's really the one running scared? I'm not scared to get beat by someone who has more skill. As a Matter of fact it happens often.
    I'll take a piece straight from my shop any day any time and put it in any competition. In masters. And Take my licks OR not accordingly.
    What you won't ever see me do is enter a piece, tweak based on what a judge says, re-enter tweak it and re-enter it again.
    I would get 0 personal satisfaction out this.
    I want to know what I,ME by myself using only the knowledge I have gained over the years of competing and from talking with fellow taxidermist and put that into my work.
    A real twist to my story is that a lot of the guys that I know doing this are some of the ones I look up to the most in the industry.. That gets a little tricky. Like I said before it is legal but it is almost impossible to call it fair or to compete against.
    Heck I think I'll hire Bill Yox,Mr.Vincent and Tommy Hall and maybe 1or 2 other notables to come stand in my shop and look over my shoulder as I am mounting and finishing my next piece so they can point out everything wrong. I should do well. What do you think?
    I think it has gotten to the point that we are loosing the true meaning of competition.
    It has become more about winning.


    Ok, case in point. At the last WTC, I slammed together a deer head in 7 days and entered it in the Pro division. Byran Epply judged it and gave it a second. Told me it would blue at any state show if I tweaked this and tweaked that.. Ok, I found out what I needed to, which was that I need to really step my game up if I desire to win. Funny thing was, I knew my problem areas on this particular head before taking it, but that's ok. I still wanted to go and compete. Then a few weeks ago some guys were getting ready to head out to the Missouri show. I thought about it, but what was I to gain? It wasn't a top shelf piece worthy of winning top awards, Bryan had already judged it. (He was the judge in Missouri) So, I opted to stay home. There was really nothing for me to gain by going with the same piece I had at the WTC. SO.....................I get your point.

    Now lets move on to the piece I'm currently working on for the next WTC. I will want to show it once or twice before the WTC if possible. Why? To get a feel for where it's at. WHY? Example..... Billy Dunn from NY won Best Pro Deer head at the last WTC. Had he realized just how smoking good his head was, he might have gave the boys in the masters division a serious run for their money. Yes his head was that good but perhaps he didn't realize it.
    I'm never going to say it's not about learning because hopefully the judges we hire are worthy to be judges whom we can learn from. But while in the learning phases, it IS about WINNING. You are learning to BECOME WINNERS. Once you WIN, that has got to be an awesome accomplishment feeling.

    How is it Phil? I watched Phil compete year after year only to get edged out. But PHIL kept coming back at it. THEN, it happened. PHIL WON BEST IN WORLD. Now no-one can ever take that away from him. He did it. He ran the whole gambit. He had to learn not only how to mount a Best in World mount, but he also had to learn how to compete to win. When he finally won, the whole industry was happy for him. He made it to the top. A place he desired to be. The same place I desire to be someday. But pay my dues and learn from the hard knocks is the price one has to go thru to reach the top. Now, why are YOU competing?? To become the best that you can be? I hope so. That's why we all should be competing. But don't tell me that WINNING isn't in your mind, because it is if you find yourself striving for perfection, and the notoriety of reaching it. If we get there, it is short lived before a new World's Best is crowned, so enjoy it as long and as hard as you can.
     
  6. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    See, this is the thing. Like I said earlier, and Michael just said now again, and Jim has eluded to as well, should guys be simply victims of the schedule, because the bigger show was first before the state shows the guy wanted to show at?

    To me, it shouldnt be the show rules that tell me not to bring some huge winning mount to a smaller event, I should know when itd be ok, and when it would be more like a cake walk. But again, why does a smaller show mean less talent? I say if a mount is out there, beat it. If it doesnt show up at an event and you win, you didnt beat whats considered better, but you did win that event. THATS why I think we compete against nature as much as each other. Its not a champion thing, just a winning thing...to me, anyway. I know Timbuck and I wont agree, but I respect that.

    When you win a show, youre only THE MAN until about the time the hotel staff comes out to clean up after the banquet. Then its back to starting all over again.

    Like I said earlier, I see both sides, from a state show perspective, trying to stay afloat, and from a competitors eye view, wanting to challenge ones self.

    Catman, youve been shaking the trees for a couple weeks now...getting any competitors to fall out of them yet? --wink--
     
  7. antlerman

    antlerman NTA Life Member #0118

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    EXactly. I love the way you guys do things in Missouri. Good show.
     
  8. cwag

    cwag Member

    I understand what Tim is trying to say... If a guy has a really nice piece and goes too multiple shows win a bunch of awards with it, comes to your state show which maybe his also... Cleans house, and then starts telling everyone how he changed this or that after he got his critiques from all the other judges, it can kinda make you feel like he had help with it! Personally I've never been able to change anything to help... If it was tore up when I mounted no matter what I do it's still tore up!! It all boils down to an ego thing... Yours got hurt and his feels better!
    Maybe the only thing that bothers me in a way, is when some guy gets a really smokin piece put together and goes to state shows he never been to and never plans on going again just to win a bunch of plaques... We all have egos but really! State shows to me are to see old friends and meet new ones and hang out with like minded people... And try to beat your friends, which sucks for me... I got some pretty good taxidermist as friends, but the main thing is we all stay friends! Your never going to be able to regulate who can and can't come to a show!
    The world shows a whole other thing, I have a few friends there that I wanna beat too... I love a challenge! In my mind if your just there to just win your there for all the wrong reasons.. Because your probably going to get your feelings hurt as much as your not! If you don't enjoy putting your piece together more than you love the awards you might wanna find something else to do! I have a feeling the worlds are going to be epic this year!!! I hope all the egos will fit in that place!!!!
     
  9. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    Clay, I hear what youre saying and I kinda agree with a few of your points, too. Im not as sold on the mount with corrections having help, etc, as you and Tim, but again, I understand.
     
  10. Cole

    Cole Amateur Taxidermist

    I guess that depends on what state. I feel here in MO that our Masters Division is strong enough that no one is going to walk in and win everything without a fight. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I don't think it would be a cake walk. I saw more awards leave our state this year than I can remember, but still not all of them. I feel there are plenty of other states that are the same way. I'd venture to bet no one is walking into WI and taking all their plaques any time soon either. To me that is what makes it fun....let the out of staters bring their best stuff and make the show an absolute dog fight. MO is happy to be the venue for that showdown.
     
  11. wctaxidermy1

    wctaxidermy1 Member

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    You have to be a resident of KS to win and awards??? Really!! I've never been anywhere near the eastcoast and would love to go to the PA show I know they have a bigger show and want to stay a little longer and check out the scenery. So if I put together a smoking piece and went and cleaned house (I'm not talented enough to do any such thing) and never came again. which I probably would not would be a 2 day drive for me.

    I guess that makes me a bad person according to Clay, then so be it. We don't have to justify to anyone our reasons for going to a show. If it pisses ya off then beat them or stay home. This is the second time I've seen this thread this year and both were posted by non crmpetitors. If you don't compete why do you care?
     
  12. Jerry Huffaker

    Jerry Huffaker Well-Known Member

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    Very good post Clay, Clay and I have had pieces compete against each other in the masters a few times over the last few years and we've both come out on top at one time or another. I've learned a ton by just looking at his mounts. We are still friends and will remain that way. I too understand why Tim feels the way he does, I just don't agree and he and I will also remain friends. For me personally, there has never been anything I could change from previous critiques that would have made the mount win any more than it did. It's all personal, as Bill says, I personally won't take a big winner at the national level to a state show after it wins at Nationals unless my state show comes after. My comp mounts will go up in competition or I will retire it. If someone else wants to that's fine with me, go for it. I have no problem competing with the very best taxidermy, whether they have been tweaked or not. As Clay and others have suggested I really hate the idea of restricting what mounts can come to your state show, it's hard enough as it is to get participation without doing that.
     
  13. cwag

    cwag Member

    Bill I just meant I understand how Tim is thinking...hell I'd try to fix mine too, some of the time I know what's wrong with it and still can't fix it!
    Cole I'm talking about guys who win a breakthrough with a piece, and then go from one show to another to see how many they can win (and this is the important part) shows they've never been to and will never go to again just to win big awards, that shouldn't be what the state shows are for, especially some of these associations that struggle just to keep a viable organization going... Now if that person wants to join that state and help in making a strong association I have no problem with that! There I understand there are some very strong states, that welcome all comers... I live in one!
    Now I'm not saying this is what I think should be done... But one way that might make people feel better is for Larry to say once a piece wins a breakthrough it can't win another... Just a thought! Never heard anyone complain about the WASCO award being like that!
    Ken Walker once told me the more you win the less it means, except at the world show... Maybe that's why I think like I do!
     
  14. Cory

    Cory Keep an eye on quality!

     
  15. TIMBUCK

    TIMBUCK Active Member

    Clay my point is this.
    When a taxidermist puts a comp piece together for a particular show, any show,it is and should be the best piece him or her can do to THEIR capability. If not why bring it. Do your best and learn from there. Apply what you learn to your NEXT piece. Going from show to show getting critiques and making changes/improvements based on this and then re-entering the same piece at a different show is where the gray area is for me. It's not that it seems they had help. They HAVE had help. AND if you do make changes don't tell your competition or put on Facebook(actually saw this this year)that your making changes.
    I will tell from experience to put 100 hrs in a piece only to be beat by one point by a piece that falls into the above category feels like getting kicked in the taint. Twice.

    Again I just don't think taxidermy competitions were meant to be this. Maybe we are evolving I don't know but it won't slow me down. That I do know. Competitions are the only way to truly learn IMO.

    I want to know when Phil's coming back to judge LS? Actually that whole crew was awesome.
     
  16. Here is what I don't understand about this….what is the difference if you take the new knowledge that you acquired and put it into the current mount or put it into a new mount. We agree that it is OK to gain knowledge from judges and apply it. You still have to have the ability to apply it to the piece. I would think if anything it would be harder (but less time consuming to do a new mount) to modify an already mounted animal.
     
  17. jim tucker

    jim tucker Active Member

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    I don't know what they were MEANT to be but it has always been this way. Even back in 80's guys did the same thing.

    The "competition is for LEARNING" mantra was always a line of crap. If we are there to LEARN why have awards at all. You DO learn from competing...sometimes you learn that you suck ;D
     
  18. antlerman

    antlerman NTA Life Member #0118

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    Here's what I don't understand.

    I, probably more than most, place myself under the guidance and direction of some of our industries finest. Bill Yox, Fred Vanderburgh, Rick Carter, Joe Meder and anyone else that I can corner for a minute, or in some cases a lifetime friendship. Collectively, they have taught me more than I could have ever acquired from a critique, or a competition setting. So does that mean when I compete you are competing against them? HELL NO!
    What it means is that you are competing against me, and what I have acquired from others along the way. It is still I who has to do the work. When I compete against you, I am competing against you and your abilities to do what you have learned along the way. Not against who you learned it from. So I guess I don't understand what the problem is with learning, correcting, re-competing over and over with a mount that you are trying to get right. It's ALL a learning process. No-one that I know of ever got to the top without guidance and input from others before them, teaching them as they go.
     
  19. antlerman

    antlerman NTA Life Member #0118

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    How could anyone not understand the OHIO Whitetail Mafia group from years ago?

    Cary Cockran
    Brad and Bryan Eppley
    Bill Yox
    Hilton Eppley
    Dane Phillips
    and a few others I can't remember right now.

    You think that group wasn't working together to get to the top? LOL
     
  20. cwag

    cwag Member

    Vince... What Tim is saying is I want to compete against the mount you did right now with what you know right now, not the mount that was carried to multiple shows, you where told what's wrong with it , take it home fix what you can and then go to another show and Tim gets beat by one point! It's kinda like you had some help on THAT piece... Not the next piece you do!
    We all know there's no good answer for this, never will be!