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Allowed or not ?

Discussion in 'The Taxidermy Industry' started by buckfever*, Jul 19, 2015.

  1. Send it back out the door

    66.3%
  2. Allow it to stay as is

    25.8%
  3. Allow it stay with a covered barrier around it with a warning posted

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Allowed as is with a warning posted at the entrance

    3.4%
  5. Remove the christian items from the piece

    4.5%
  1. tem

    tem Well-Known Member

    I don't under stand why your not walking with god. you quote the bible very well. to bad you don't listen to what you read. god wishes for no one to go to hell. he made it for the devil and his demons. he told Adam and eve to be fruit full and multiply. they were in the garden of Eden. you know. like the Bahamas. he told them not to touch the Apple tree. the rest were theres. they couldn't do it. he told them what would happen if they did. that didn't bother them. just like now days. man don't care what god says. ill do what I want. and this thing with praying for you. you need to come out of left field. god expects his children to pray for others. weather you believe it or not. things change when people pray. may be not right away in some cases. and may be years down the road. that's not are call. its in his timing. so what are you afraid of. go to god and seek him. see what he has to say. were not going to convince you. did something bad happen to you or a love one in your life. is this why you don't believe in god. may be he didn't answer a prayer for you. and this is not a smart alack question. I am censer in this question.
     
  2. uncleheff

    uncleheff New Member

    First off, I don't understand how you got the idea that these are my idea of a proper morality, but lets see what the God of Abraham has to say about them... With the following exclusions:

    -Pornography does less harm, if any, than, say for instance, over eating... More people suffer and die each year from complications due to overeating than pornography could hope to shake a stick at. But I don't see anyone holding McDonalds to the same level of sinfulness as pornography. As a matter of fact, pornography is healthy in most cases. Just because you find it taboo doesn't mean it is bad, maybe you should read some unbiased literature on the subject before attempting to put it on the same level as genocide. By the way, pornography is not addressed in the Bible, because it didn't exist as we know it today, if at all, in those times. They would just procure a prostitute, and that seemed to be ok with God... I mean, at the very least, Concubines were around in mass numbers.

    -Euthanasia is the epitome of being able to control your own life and death. If a person wants to die who are you to force them to live? By the way, if you think this is addressed in the Bible as we address it in the 21st century, you are just plain wrong. Our moral conversations, although still encumbered by religious nonsense, have advanced way beyond deciding whether or not to burn a witch today, or to torment her until tomorrow and then light the fire. As a matter of fact I don't see anything that addresses euthanasia at all but I am open to suggestions on passages that you might construe as being against it.

    -Welfare Leeches... I need some clarification as to what you are attempting to get at here, What programs are you referring to and how many of the people are "leeching" as you call it? There are many different ways the government helps people with subsidies and I would rather you be specific about what you are talking about before I attempt to reply. We may be envisioning different programs and therefore our conversation would be at cross purposes. I can say that the Bible is used to both condemn and support, depending on your interpretation of course, "welfare" in general but again, I don't know if that's what you are getting at.

    -Water pollution is not addressed and there are only 3 passages that can even be construed as speaking about pollution at all and they are speaking of a moral pollution. So the answer to the problem, yet again, is not in the Bible. Seriously though, what would people know about pollution 2000 years ago?

    -Death Panels are a myth. Sarah Palin coined the phrase and it was backed by other right wing propagandists such as Newt Gingrich, Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh. It was quickly debunked by people, even a few republicans can claim this honor, who actually give a damn about others having access to health care. I am sincerely dismayed that you still hold this belief contrary to the evidence of the matter but then again why should I be... You have yet to make a claim based on the evidence.

    The God you subscribe to actually commands such happenings as "killing babies/fetuses, mass killings, genocide, slavery, oppression, conquering other nations and wars" in the Bible. I'm not saying that's the sole reason for these occurrences but it sure doesn't lend a hand in abating them. Especially in the third world countries where Christianity is so piously proselytized by missionaries. I would provide the quotes but they are too numerous to compile on this thread. I'll leave it in your good hands to do a quick Google search for the above in the bible...

    So tell me, who has argued this whole time against this nonsense, how I am on the same level as your cruel, jealous, malicious, capricious, conquering, war mongering, immoral, genocidal and slave trade promoting God....
     

  3. uncleheff

    uncleheff New Member

    The word is sincere and I'll use it in a sentence for you...
    "I am being very sincere when I tell you I think you are trolling".
    When you come up with an actual argument for the existence of your God then we can discuss it, but until then I will leave you to pray on it. Maybe if you ask him nicely, in his own time of course, God himself will give you one, and if he does then I'm sure it will be irrefutable, but I reserve my sincere doubts on the matter.
     
  4. Tanglewood Taxidermy

    Tanglewood Taxidermy Well-Known Member

    Actually, I didn't say those things were addressed in the Bible. I was commenting on your comment on how far we have come in terms of morality. What I understood, or possibly mis understood, was that you were saying that moraly speaking, we have advanced quiet well. My point was that the same things we have now we have had for a long,long time. You only have to go to ancient Rome or Greece to see pornography on walls of buildings. Because it isn't in the Bible doesn't mean it didn't exist. It is obvious that your idea of morality and mine is not the same. Ask children that were forced into pornography and survived it, if it isn't harmful. I'm sure you will get a different view point than your own. Now, I know that you will say that I didn't specify pornography as child porn, but that is what it is and that is pornography. ancient Rome had plumbing and the sewers went where? It made it's way to the sea via various water ways. They added lead to the water as some archeologists have suggested. I'm going to go spend some time with my wife now.
     
  5. EA

    EA Well-Known Member

    Talks Again, like I said before. I could not care less if you believe or if you don't believe.

    I'll give you 2 examples that I witnessed. You can twist them any way that you want. I'm sure you will have all the answers. Try to do better than "coincidence'.


    Story 1

    I've been with my wife since 1981, 34 yrs... 99% of the time it has been great. I've got it made. We both do. Anyway, several years ago we did hit a rough patch. At my request, she moved out, got her own apartment and was doing fine on her own. We both were.

    I was fishing alone in a club tournament, not catching much at all. I had been thinking all day about going thru with the divorce or trying to work it out. The day was almost over, maybe an hour left to fish. I hadn't caught much of anything..I was throwing a crankbait most of the day and I said a little prayer. "God, give me some sort of sign..If I am supposed to work this out, let me catch a fish on this cast" Pow, caught a nice keeper... Why a fish now? My other 400 casts didn't catch one, but that one did.. Not quite sure it was actually a sign, I said "God, If I'm supposed to work this out, let me catch another Bigger fish on this cast" Pow, another Bigger fish!

    Now, I said "God, if I'm supposed to let her come back and work this out, let me catch a nice limit and win this tournament. Pow, Pow, Pow.. I caught fish after fish the rest of the tournament. I went to weigh in and no one else had squat. A fish here a fish there. I was the only one with a limit and won by a landslide.

    I drove home thinking about what had happened. I got home, parked and walked in the door and my phone is ringing. I picked it up and it was my wife. She said" I'd like to come home and work this out"......I said c'mon home.

    Now you can laugh it up, Dismiss it as nonsense, Say I was "praying for selfish reasons" what ever makes you feel good. I know how it went down and I need no convincing.

    Story 2.

    My cousin lives by me. Our family's are close. His wife left for work and their son was lying on the floor in front of the TV. He appeared to be sleeping. My cousin was already at work. When his wife returned hours later, the boy was still in the same place and position. She tried to wake him, but couldn't..The ambulance rushed him to the local hospital where he was in a coma..They didn't have a clue, so they transferred him to Pittsburgh's Children's Hospital.

    Children's Hospital has some of the best minds in the country. They didn't have a clue either. 2 days in a coma and no indications he was going to come out of it. My cousin overheard them talking about encephalitis and West Nile, but they couldn't/wouldn't confirm it. They told them, "we don't know what is going on. He has swelling of the brain and I'm sorry, but you better prepare for the worst"

    My cousin and his daughter went to the chapel and they prayed for God's help. They went back to the room and that same night he opened his eyes... Imagine that. A couple hours earlier there was little hope.
    Before you say "you are relating a story" Wrong. We were in contact with them thru the whole ordeal. I spoke to them when they were told it was grim and I spoke to them as soon as he woke up.

    You want to explain to us in your fancy syllables, what some of the top doctors in the USA couldn't?

    They were shocked, amazed and had no idea what happened.

    They never would confirm West Nile. We can't figure out why, tho that was when it was not that common. However, a couple weeks later a case was confirmed a quarter mile for his house.
     
  6. Tanglewood Taxidermy

    Tanglewood Taxidermy Well-Known Member

    EA, you haven't written a paper on this and sent it out for peer review, therefore, it couldn't have happened. Don't you know anything? One man's miracle is another mans coincidence. You say this happened, but haven't offered any proof of what you are saying so I can't believe you. You fail to realize that the Bible didn't mention comas and West Nile disease, so how can you think that what you think happened is anything other than coincidence.... blah, blah, blah.
     
  7. I personally don't like it. It seems, to me, to be on the blasphemous side.
     
  8. uncleheff

    uncleheff New Member

    I thought we were talking about morality in the context of religion... You know, in keeping with the idea of the thread.

    Yes, there are still bad people in this world... You got me there... Sadly that was not my point. If we were to write a book today and fill it with moral precepts, you would not find anything like what you find in the Bible. Such as, "Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." -1 Samuel 15:2-3. This is what I mean when I say we have grown out of this nonsense and have become more moral.

    Pornography does not just encompass children like you are attempting to portray. You are redefining the term to suit your needs. There is a big difference between pornography containing children and pornography containing consenting adults so my answer would have been completely different then the one I offered if I had known you meant children. I do have a question though... Do you have a problem with pornography between two consenting adults? If you do, does it have something to do with your religion?

    Yes people have been dumping their waste in the water supplies for thousands of years and still do today in some areas. You are just proving my point though. We didn't know that it was bad back in the time of the Bible that's why its not mentioned. Maybe if God were a moral being he would have put a line in their somewhere cautioning people not to drink from the same water they bathe and defecate in. This would have only saved the needless suffering and death of countless people throughout the ages... Created the universe, didn't think it wise to not drink the same water you crap in...

    I find it interesting that the only two refutations you put before me out of all the original ones you posed were pornography and water pollution... Are you grasping at straws? If not and your attempting to change the subject from religion, then I completely understand. But I probably won't take as heavy an interest in the latter.

    Whoa slow down there big guy, let me give it a shot for you...

    Thank you for your permission to "twist" these already twisted stories any way I want but I think I'll refrain and attempt to untwist them since they have already been twisted by a presupposition. The presupposition being "God is real and cares about what I have to say". It always amuses me that people think that a "God", whatever that term means to them, would have the slightest interest in them. This is the embodiment of narcissism, don't you think?

    Story 1
    You were praying for selfish reasons and selfish reasons only, like you said, you wanted to win the competition and you couldn't figure out whether or not to get back together with your wife. But all that aside... Can you demonstrate how these three prayers had more to do with the fish you caught then possibly a school of fish passing by, or you passing by said school or any other possible reason? If not then there is no reason to go any further. Fish tend to bite lures from time to time, sometimes more often than others, sometimes not at all. For some people they bite better when they are having a beer, and some say that hinders their fish catching ability. Some say Poseidon was with them that day and some say he frowned on them. The problem lies in the fact that your leading the evidence to where you want it to go instead of letting it lead you.
    And again, how narcissistic of you to think that a God would care enough about you or your frivolous needs. Why aren't you praying for the 9 million children that die each year before they reach the age of 5? Since you have a direct path to God and all.

    Story 2
    So this whole story is an argument from ignorance... Before you get mad let me explain why. You say yourself you don't know what happened, the doctors don't know what happened, NOBODY knew what happened. Instead of continuing to look for the answer, or at the very least just leaving it at I don't know, you come up with the conclusion, THEREFORE GOD... This is quite common in religious ideologies, I think this is pretty much why it started in the first place, although there are many hypothesis on that subject. For example... I don't know where that lightning comes from, therefore there is a god named Zeus who wields it on Mount Olympus with all the other gods that control everything else in this world they created. Yes people get sick and some people recover... I don't see your justification for why you think that a prayer holds any sway on the outcome.
    Again this is the personification of narcissism. God cared so much about your nephew that he saved him, all his parents had to do was say a prayer... What about the parents of the 9 million other children that prayed and never got a reprieve for their child? Were they praying to the wrong God? Did their child not deserve the attention your nephew got? Do you have a direct line to the almighty and are using it for selfish reasons? Really I would like to know your answer to this if you dare to make an attempt at one.
     
  9. Its gone far enough! Its time!! bye bye !
     
  10. Paul B

    Paul B Active Member

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    What ever the case may be, Walks Again Taxidermy and everyone else is going to die, everyone, whether just after birth or at a ripe old age of 100. We will all find out then what truth is. The bible says heaven will be an Eternity. This life we all live is just a blink of an eye.
     
  11. Jerry Huffaker

    Jerry Huffaker Well-Known Member

    2,477
    283
    NO! Keep him going this is too entertaining.
     
  12. EA

    EA Well-Known Member

    Walks Again, for someone who professes to know it all, you seem to know little about prayer. The Lords Prayer instructs us to pray for our needs, our debts, our protections and for his direction. Thats all in one prayer.

    I am free to pray for whatever tickles my fancy. They may or may not be answered. I gave you 2 examples of prayers that were granted and you want me to answer why some made up number of 9 million weren't. Those 2 stories I shared aren't unique. I venture to say millions of prayers were answered last night.

    I don't pretend to know Gods plan. I only know I'd rather stand in my shoes than yours. Buck is right, I'm over it. You bore me.
     
  13. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    I died and came back. Went to place made of light and I could fly. A voice told me I had to go back. I really didn't want to. Not at all. Woke up just as the ambulance arrived. Cool experience.
     
  14. Tanglewood Taxidermy

    Tanglewood Taxidermy Well-Known Member

    Watching bad mitten is only slightly more boring than tennis. Volleyball is better, that is if it is hot chick beach volleyball.
     
  15. Just in the news today.......

    Goliath Gate: Archaeologists Uncover Entrance to Biblical City of Gath----Archaeologists are consistently proving the Bible to be correct.

    Walks Again "Taxidermy"---your replies are so well thought out, and they do make you sound somewhat intelligent, but you have shown yourself to be the biggest FOOL on Taxidermy.Net.

    I'm quite secure in my beliefs, so your replies are nothing more than "useless banter", where this post has ended up. How old are you....? under 27 I would guess.....
     
  16. Jerry Huffaker

    Jerry Huffaker Well-Known Member

    2,477
    283
    What about them cowboys!
     
  17. tem

    tem Well-Known Member

    golly ge wiz beve. I didn't know you were gona count spelling. try to be nice to some one. why don't you go back to romper room and suck on your bottle. your not in Kansas any more Dorthy.
     
  18. uncleheff

    uncleheff New Member

    Archaeologists uncovered the city of Troy years ago, archaeologists are consistently proving the Iliad and the Odyssey to be correct. Do you see how ridiculous it is to point to some historical city as proof that the God/Gods of an ancient book are true?
    Can you tell me how I am the biggest FOOL on Taxidermy.Net? Or would you like to continue to just make assertions and not back them up?
    Most people are quite secure in their beliefs, that's why this nonsense is still believed by large numbers. You are proving my point though... Which is, you start from a presupposition and attempt to make the facts of reality agree with it, and when they don't you discard them.
    I am well over 27 although I don't know why that would matter to this discussion.

    So why would you believe it to be true now if by your own admission you can't know until you die? The intellectually honest thing to do would be to remain agnostic until it is proven true. Just like you are when it comes to the Koran, Bhagavad Gita, Avesta or any other holy book, besides the Bible.

    I never professed to know it all but for some reason I keep getting accused of it as though being accused of it is some sort of argument against my position.
    Your right though about how you and a lot of other Christians are using prayer, which is very selfishly.
    You are free to pray for whatever tickles your fancy, and for you to put it that way shows how arbitrary it is in the first place. You gave me two anecdotal accounts of how you interpreted prayer to "work". I was simply asking you to attempt to make it work for others instead of yourself. Since your prayers are answered and the parents of the 9 million children that die each year before the age of 5 are not so fortunate. But that might be asking too much of you to use prayer for other than selfish reasons.
    You do actually "pretend" to know Gods plan. You know a small part of his plan and that is he requires prayer from his servants before he will attempt to help them...
    "I only know I'd rather stand in my shoes than yours. Buck is right, I'm over it. You bore me." This is another example of what people do when their assertions are called into question and they are unable to back them up with evidence and argument. They make some snide remark and quit, all the while thinking they won.

    These are the types of people that slow the progress of society. Ridiculous...
     
  19. Paul B

    Paul B Active Member

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    Why would you believe it to be true, its called Faith. If this life you live is all you expect and want, then be happy for your time here, live well.
     
  20. John Janelli

    John Janelli New Member

    1,073
    45
    N.J.
    I'd like to attempt to pull this thread back through the eye of the needle, if possible. First, I'd like to congratulate the GSTA to be the first state to embrace the rogue taxidermy community into the world of competition. We're told that preregistration's alone from these 'first timers' netted 2K in revenue not including fabulous vending and auction sales as well. One of the country's most highly acclaimed studio owners and museum specialists, George Dante was the judge of the rogue division as newly forged friendships fast became evident. Even the 'Godfather' himself, Richard Christoforo gave the new category his nod of approval.
    As for the controversial piece of the crucified mount, it certainly was not the first ever to be so scrutinized and condemned for being anything but artful exhibition. Rogue taxidermy is perhaps one of the oldest thus historical forms of 'hoax' taxidermy since Charles Waterton's Nondescript of the early 19th century.
    http://hoaxes.org/archive/permalink/charles_watertons_nondescript
    The world famous P.T. Barnum made a fortune off his rogue "Feejee Mermaid"
    which also was the work of someone who obviously knew how to 'taxi' animal parts into a woven atrocity that commanded nothing less than it's share of human curiosity. http://hoaxes.org/archive/permalink/the_feejee_mermaid
    My own personal favorite has long been The Death and Burial of Cock Robin;
    http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2014/04/walter-potter-creepy-taxidermy
    In fact, the temptation of writing a thorough Americanized treatise on hoax / rogue taxidermy is fast becoming irresistible to several authors and historians based solely upon the principal of being a morally vile subject.
    But taxidermists to a greater or lesser degree have a way of portraying many things that unfortunately disturb more than a few viewers who are not naturally inclined to appreciate any subject material be it a mounted deer head or worse these days, an African lion mount.
    So where does that leave our industry when a piece comes through the competition doors that somehow does not quite meet with our standards - religious or otherwise?
    Back in 1924, a taxidermist / sculptor did just that. He modeled a man emerging from the draping skin of a gorilla and named it, "Chrysalis". The taxidermist was Carl Akeley.
    http://www.artnet.com/artists/carl-ethan-akeley/chrysalis-oo64Pt3wh-PRY0wTWxY5PQ2
    He entered it the competitions of the National Academy of Design and, believe it or not, it was quickly refused. Akeley's Chrysalis was said to have publicly reached "white heat levels" of controversy amongst various dignitaries of society. On April 20, 1924, the headlines of the Philadelphia Ledger read;
    "Why Is The Ape Man Hidden In The Cellar? Akeley's Statue; The Chrysalis, Symbol of Evolution Theory, Rejected by National Academy of Design - Is It Because Of Offense To Artistic Taste or Shock To Religious Belief?"
    Akeley became greatly indignant at all the hype against him and his sculpture. In an almost tantrum like response, he exclaimed in an interview conducted right in his museum studio, "It makes people think! Whenever we can make people think, for goodness sake let us not delay!"
    I personally believe that if there was ever any form of cyber space social media back then like we have today, Akeley would have lost his museum jobs with 48 hours of going viral. Even the AMNH bore a great deal of pressure to part ways with Akeley for his open heresy for even hinting at evolution vs creation. Reverend Charles Francis Potter, pastor of the West Side Unitarian Church in NYC, managed to borrow Chrysalis from Akeley and displayed it right in the center aisle of the church. This turned a smoldering wick into a blazing furnace of continued public outcry and debate. Just what Akeley wanted it to do and he reveled in it like a raging bull elephant sounding the alarm. His crime branded him by many as being, "...a jungle worshipper", and he was without any thought at all of his integrity and credibility as a naturalist, sculptor and taxidermist. He was falsely accused of making death masks of gorilla's faces, hands and feet appear to be more humanoid on purpose. The critics heralded their scorn at Akeley by writing, "Isn't it singular that his worship among the cathedral forests of the African jungle didn't give him one little peep at the Almighty God?"
    Akeley took a terrific beating from around the globe as he was relentlessly blamed for "... the ultimate insult to fundamentalism and portraying a vivid symbol of the loss of grace in a sin cursed lost world." Even with things being different today vs back then, the thinking was the same.

    And all that made me think....