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What do you think?

Discussion in 'The Taxidermy Industry' started by Carolin Brak-Dolny, Jul 13, 2016.

  1. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Sorry Tim, but that's a crock. Sure, judges should use reference but it's completely unnecessary. That reference is interpreted by that judge and for experience I know few judges that would interpret references the same. What the ideal judge has is consistency and that's the best you're going to get. Yiu don't need pictures to be consistent. Rick Carter knows what a deer looks like. Rick Krane knows what a fish looks like. Ken Walker know what a bear looks like. Tony Finazzo knows what a bird looks like. ANY GOOD JUDGE can give a thorough critique without reference pictures and all the reference in the world won't help a bad one.
     
  2. Carolin Brak-Dolny

    Carolin Brak-Dolny Active Member

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    Quote from.

    Jerry Huffaker
    Platinum Member
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    Re: What do you think?
    « Reply #22 on: July 14, 2016, 12:09:25 PM » Reply with quote
    No Id rather it be as anonymous as possible which is hard with all the media these days. why would you want to put the names on them? I had someone else roll my piece into the comp room for me this year.


    Jerry, was the judge standing at the door or in the competition room when the mounts were being brought in?
     

  3. Jerry Huffaker

    Jerry Huffaker Well-Known Member

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    Yes they had already began judging
     
  4. TIMBUCK

    TIMBUCK Active Member

    So now reference is completely unnecessary??
    ANY GOOD JUDGE?? That's painting with a wide brush.
    Ive seen several really great judges use reference while judging and critiquing. Ive even had a "famous" judge tell me, while judging my Wildebeest, that he had to go back to his room and look at his laptop, for reference, because it had been so long since he had seen a wildebeest.. Totally understandable. They cant remember everything about every species in detail.
     
  5. Carolin Brak-Dolny

    Carolin Brak-Dolny Active Member

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    It is great the judge went back for reference. A judge that carries reference has more credibility than one that does not. When giving a critique all they need to carry is an iPhone to show the competitor what they are talking about. I see Rick Krane carrying his computer at every show he judges.
     
  6. TIMBUCK

    TIMBUCK Active Member

    I agree. He was trying to decide "Best of Category" so he wanted to be certain of his pick. I was really glad to hear him say that he took the time to do that.. It showed that he took his job very serious. Can't help be have respect for that.

    There was also another judge, another one of the best, that handed me the worse beating ever. Even worse than my very first critique years ago..
    He also had reference. Every thing that he nailed me on he could prove.. I learned more from that man and his critique than I ever thought possible in a 15 minute visit.
     
  7. v.fleming

    v.fleming New Member

    Judging without reference is a mistake. Yes, most guys that judge know what they are judging looks like, but at times they even need it on certain mounts. Giving the critique is where it is a must. You need to teach the person receiving the critique by showing them with reference, not how smart you think you are and just take my word for it because I'm ?.

    As for the collective artistic, and this is my opinion. If more than one person is working on a mount at the time it is being mounted and finished thru the complete process. This includes anyone present giving instruction to someone while doing the work. I can promise that if I had Gene Smith, Joe Meder and Cary Cochran sitting around while I was putting a deer together, it would be the best I have ever done. Their eyes and minds telling my hands what to do and fix that I miss. Watching a DVD, calling someone on the phone or attending a seminar/workshop will not speak up and say, you might want to tweak that eye. That should be left up to you.

    As for the judging of shows. I have told many people this while judging and it could work at some shows. Why not give each person that competes a time to be at the comp room, say 9:00am till 9:15am for example. Give them the clip board, score sheet and pencil and have them write down what the judge finds on their own piece. They see how the judging works and they get their critique at the same time. The only thing you don't do at this time is put a score on it. For me, it doesn't matter who mounted it, I'm using the score sheet. I have not seen a score sheet yet that has a place to give bonus points for who you are and what a mount has done at other shows.
     
  8. Cole

    Cole Amateur Taxidermist

    ***LIKE***
     
  9. catman

    catman Active Member

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    What a revolutionary idea, you mean actually point out what you feel is wrong in front of the guy. There is some merit to this, but risk some potential arguments during judging by radicalized competitors. The upside may outweigh the downside. Might be a good thing to try at a state show.
     
  10. TIMBUCK

    TIMBUCK Active Member

    Vincent, your second paragraph is spot on with my thinking. A judges verbal critique, which will include how to fix issues, and critique sheet, with issues written, should not be allowed to be used to fix said issues on a piece for the next show, a few weeks down the road. At that point it becomes the judges mind telling the taxidermists hands what to do.
    I this really what competition, at the highest level, was meant to be? I do not believe so. This is my opinion. It will not change.
     
  11. Carolin Brak-Dolny

    Carolin Brak-Dolny Active Member

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    So when the judge puts the score on it later,(since now he knows who did the mount) he thinks in his mind well that guy is a ......... a hole so he may get a blue but it will certainly not be a BOC. OR that was my buddies mount so I will give it a good score. OR he thinks holy crap that competitor has won at a previous show so if I give it a bad score I will look like an idiot.

    You may say, no, we hire judges with ethics, well BS, they will do it whether it is a conscious decision or a subconscious decision.

    How in the world will this Work?

    Trying to get anonymity is the only way things will be fair. The key word is TRYING.

    Yes I know in the realm of the total importance in the world, discussing this is really not important. Using figure skating as an example; I could careless that the Russian judge screwed with the scores on purpose, But to skater who practiced and was the best and got ripped off It is totally on the top of his mind.
     
  12. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    So let me get this straight. We go to competitions to learn by getting a critique. But if you actually apply said advice you are now collaborating? And if you work in a production studio with co-workers giving their 2 cents you shouldn't actually take full credit for the resulting mount? How about using an instructional dvd? Or live reference for that matter. Giving a collective artist award to a penned Deer is something I would travel a long way and spend a lot of money to see. I'd give a standing ovation to that one. There wouldn't be a dry eye in the house!
     
  13. catman

    catman Active Member

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    I have advocated to sequester judges until all mounts are placed and competitors have cleared out. The problem lies with mofm and colkective divisions. If registration and comp entries can come through the back while judges groom and place mofm and collective entries out front, it would be best. I was placing a collective piece the year I, judges a one guy was furious that i saw his piece that I later judged.
     
  14. michael p.

    michael p. Getting better with age :)

    Sorry, but that terminology made tea shoot out of my nose just thinking about some pshycotic competitors going crazy!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
     
  15. v.fleming

    v.fleming New Member

    If you get a critique at a show and go back and improve it, that is fine. If you take the judge home with you and he is standing over you while you fix it, no. I was speaking for myself, not no one else. I have a problem with someone present telling someone what to fix durning the whole mounting process. I know of two National Champions that had never blued in the pro division anywhere, until they took a workshop and competed with that piece. One has not competed again and the other has taken more 2nds than first. Is that fare for the ones who do it with no direct assistance? Ken, the dvd's and live deer are not telling you where you messed up at. Well, the live deer is, but it can't speak. This whole thing with competing, there friend's with the judge, that piece won there, so it must win here, oh my, that's so and so's piece, we have to give it to them will never change. Just got off the phone discussing this very topic with someone who's life is very parallel to mine. Our first show was in 1985, stopped competing for 18 years and started back and done ok. He said the one thing that did not change was this very topic being discussed here. You will never make everyone happy.
     
  16. Jerry Huffaker

    Jerry Huffaker Well-Known Member

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    RADICALIZED TAXIDERMISTS LIVES MATTER!
     
  17. BrianHendricks

    BrianHendricks Member

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    Now that had to make Michael P. spit and choke.
     
  18. BrianHendricks

    BrianHendricks Member

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    I'm with Mr. Fleming on this. What you see and do on your own is very different from what others standing over your shoulder will see. I think many people have the talent to put together a high 90's piece if they had someone telling them what to tweak. For me the challenge is trying to stay that focused on all aspects during the whole process. If you're getting fatigued or burnt out even live reference next to you can't make you see things. However, I bet if I had Jeanie , Jerry, James and Phil there along with some live reference they might just be able to get me to see some things. Of course they can't touch it though.
     
  19. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Not all taxidermists are loners. But it is a specific point for those prone to radicalization according to profilers! Lol, sorry, couldn't resist. Some work in production studios and are constantly networking and socializing with the other taxidermists. I worked in such an environment for 15 years before ever going to a show. It makes you a better taxidermist imho. Do you honestly think that a taxidermist just automatically applies all advice given? Like a robot? Having networked for years, I can assure you that most is taken under advisement. There is a reason that The the fine folks at Dakota Taxidermy do so well in World competitions. The Wildlife Gallery comes to mind as well. These folks are the farthest thing from cheaters you will encounter in this industry. They are professionals. Some people can't put a 90's piece together no matter how much instruction they have. It takes raw talent and natural ability along with knowledge and skill to be consistently in the upper echelons. Can you imagine an entry affidavit that requires you to state that no experts were present during the assembling of this mount? Yes I have won World titles with, and without feedback from colleagues. I mounted the re-creation Panda in John Matthews studio when I worked in DC. I had him recused from judging it though, as that's a different matter. Don't be scared to work around others people.
     
  20. BrianHendricks

    BrianHendricks Member

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    This thread has truly opened my eyes to a lot of different issues. The main one for me is it being ok to get others opinions before competing. Even when I had a large shop with employees my show pieces were completed at home and nobody saw them until they went to the show. I always thought it wasn't acceptable. Just a personal glitch I guess. Thank you Carolin and all for the awakening. Although it may not make any difference.