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Science behind tan penetration

Discussion in 'Tanning' started by DSalters, Jul 24, 2007.

  1. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    OS, the agent the drew the tan into the hide is the same agent that keeps it there. A paint on tan is simply being pulled into the hide by one of those three agent.

    BTW Uncle Glen, Krowtan makes the same claim to fame. Like the old farmer demanding his money back from the carnie when he paid a nickle to see a giraffe. "Yep, I saw it. But I know there ain't no damned such animal and I want my money back."
     
  2. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    Unc, I can't say as I ever heard that one. Must have been around for awhile if it only cost a nickel to see the beast.

    Speaking of being around for awhile, back when you were in first grade, did they start you reading with Dick and Jane, then move on to some Jeff guy and his pinto pony, and then to fables? The King's New Clothes was the one that made the biggest impression on me. Talk about setting up a bunch of kids to be suspicious of anyone selling any thing! Down side of that was that even the people and things that were legit got the same kind of suspicions.

    We've both seen a lot of The King's New Clothes real life adventure stories, and the opposite. Remember when microwaves first came out on the market? They were cheap. No one could grasp the concept of excited water molecules making food cook. Got to move those microwave ovens..........marketing people come along and put a fancy cover on them, jack up the price a few hundred dollars, call them a Radar Range, and they are now a status symbol, everyone in America now has to have one. And how about that ultrasound!?! A little bitty vibrating quartz crystal indeed! Early models could disintegrate bone and tendon, you know what it is used for now. Who would've thunked about all this stuff ever working, let alone how or why it worked? Just like right now, we are communicating with written words and photographs through little skinny wires and satellites, but we all understand how all of this form of communication works, so we just accept it as fact and go on.

    Unc, did you see what oldshaver said? "I see alot of good explanations on how a tannage is introduced into a skin, but what is keeping it there, along with the oils necessary for lubrication? H-bonds, ionic bonds, covalent bonds? These are the reasons, I cant see a paint on, or an all in one submersible, being more than a short term preservative. Maybe someone can make me believe otherwise."

    Any *cough*, *cough* steer wrestling cowboy, or Indian, worth their salt knows the answer to that one.

    What we have here is a failure to correlate.


    Back to Daniel, this was his idea.

    Daniel, I picked up on you thinking skin was cellular in structure, that's why I told you to forget everything you think you know.

    I'm surprised at the number of guys in their thirties, forties, and fifties that think such, but don't really want to admit it. I think they think I will make fun of them if they do. Why I wouldn't make fun of that bunch of old dummies for nothing.

    The cells are on the outermost layer of skin. Some times it is even argued as to where the epidermis leaves off and the dermis begins, once the attachment of one to the other is understood, the gray area of definition can be better understood.

    The cells are myriad in number, and myriad in function.

    One group of cells makes the proteins that holds the cells together.

    Another group of cells makes the proteins that create the protein structure that makes up the dermis. When you see the collagen word, that is what is indicated.

    With a whitetail, the cell layer is not going to be much thicker than the depth that a MATURE hair follicle penetrates. Penetrates as opposed to erupts, because the initial growth starts closer to the outside of the epidermis.

    I'm trying to present this in simplest terms because in many cases of pickling and "tanning" elimination of the complex portion of compounds and structures are being eliminated, or totally altered.

    Hudson, how am I doing so far?

    I'll start adding photos as I can get to it.
     

  3. DSalters

    DSalters New Member

    Your explanation is going well so far, thank you...by all means continue (when you can get to it, as you said).
     
  4. oldshaver

    oldshaver Guest

    I can correlate just fine, but how does a tannage, and oil(lubrication), in the same solution, effectively preserve a skin, when they work best, with opposite ionic charges? I guess a curl test with different paint ons, and submersibles, would be the only true answer here. Good post. I like reading other peoples thoughts on this stuff. I can tan, and shave a skin, all day long, but I don't even come close to knowing everything going on at the cellular level. I was taught to do things a certain way, and thats what I do. I'm still not convinced. PS: why don't tannery's use paint ons? It sure would save alot of man hours, and time.
     
  5. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    oldshaver, expect to take a little razzing after trickin' me with that bulldoggin' photo.

    I'll come back to my tongue-in-cheek remark later on, but first I'm trying to lay this out at an "entry level" as much as I can. If everyone keeps chipping in, there's going to be a lot of people be able to make better judgement calls. msbraintan has already added a new twist.

    Here's a photo I pulled off of hidetanning.net. This is a cape you guys tanned. Can you get me a better picture (or any one else for that matter) of the tanned muscle meat at the edge of the shaved lip line so we can add that to this thread?

    You can e-mail it to me if need be and I can photo chop it for size and clarity if that should be needed.
     
  6. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Actually OS, it WOULDN'T be either faster OR cheaper. Each hide has to be done one at a time and the cost would certainly be prohibitive. You can tan 500 hides for what it costs me to do 20.
     
  7. blackpup

    blackpup New Member

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    OS, oil is charged more than one way. I have used alot of paint-on both liqua-tan and my own mix. I do not follow the directions from the supplier .

    dsalters, tan penetration is the product of more than one thing. In my opinion the pickle etches the tannable sites. I do not use the low PH that most formula calls out for. Mine is closer to 3.5. this is much closer to the pH that the tanning material will cross link with the prepared sites too convert to fibre. The next thing is mechanical action with drums or paddle vats. pH is checked on the thickness of the skin with liquid indicators.

    When we were tanning leather the pickle ran 1.5 to 1.75 hours followed by the tan for 3 hours and the neutralization about 1.5 hours. From a science point of view there is way more than I can type in here. However speed of tan penetration is a product of the above the way we tan.
     
  8. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    Sex cells for breakfast,

    or if you prefer another term, haploid gametes, down home we just call 'em hen eggs.

    An unfertilized chicken egg is a single cell. Take that outer shell off, and that exposes the cell membrane. And here all this time you probably thought you needed a microscope to see a single cell. That should give you more cell information than what I could give you with a photograph.

    Things to remember here, the cell membrane, and the cell contents, they are both going to come back into play.

    One of my favorite posts can be found by clicking on the link. Remember, this has been written from a DNA perspective and does not take the fiber structure of the skin into consideration. A condensed version of salt drying (as far as the cell is concerned) is that the dried out cell contents are left behind. Would dried out egg still have nutrient value?

    Salting and its effect on cellular material
    www.taxidermy.net/forums/IndustryArticles/03/e/03CECE023A.html

    It ain't gonna do a whole lot of good for me to post photos if we don't get in on the same language. You wouldn't know what you are looking at. This hillbilly talk is really easier than you would think.

    How am I doing, Hudson?
     
  9. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Glen, thank you for remembering and posting that link. I couldn't find it and I've looked for it on numerous occasions. The Professor wrote one of the very best documents on salting there and it should be required reading for all taxidermists. Thanx again.
     
  10. oldshaver

    oldshaver Guest

    George, the cost of tanning 500 wt capes, with labor, is well over $6000.00. Labor is probablly 75% of a tannerys expence. Still not convinced.
     
  11. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    OS, to do 20 hides, it takes me about 5 hours per hide for 100 hours. Then it takes me 2 gallons of JRTS to do 10 hides. So, if I charge $25 an hour for shop time, I've got$2620 tied up in them. That doesn't cover any of my overhead. But if YOU did them using MY METHOD, you'd have to do them one at a time, individually. Sound cheaper to me, that's exactly why I send my big orders to you in the first place. If it weren't, I'd do them myself.
     
  12. oldshaver

    oldshaver Guest

    I must admit George, you caught me way off guard with those figures. I was thinking half of that. I don't know anything about JRTS, and would be interested in seeing the ingredients, if you have them. No mfg is going to list it all, but I can get the gist of it. Maybe I'm blind here, but I still cant see a paint on, being as good of a tan, as a submersible. If it was, all of yalls suppliers, wouldn't be selling both. I appreciate the skins, truly!
     
  13. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    The cross section below is from a commercially tanned caribou cape. In the past I would trouble shoot samples for any one that sent them my way, this is from one of those samples. I took it off one of my web articles to use here because it gives a fair idea as to the depth of the epidermis, or cell layer. Bear in mind, this is a TANNED piece, and the cell layer and dermis, or collagen, have been chemically altered.

    The golden bubbly looking section to the right of the hair follicle is what is left of CELL MEMBRANES. Cell contents are absent.

    You will see a darker section right below the lime green oval. That is the collagen in an altered state.

    The text that accompanies this photo on the web page is below:
    "The lime green oval identifies a single caribou hair, both in the epidermis and as it comes out of the epidermis, you can see that the oval also takes in the hair follicle.
    The pink circle draws attention to the area from which the hair emerges from the epidermis. Notice the bottle necking, or hour glass waist shape, of the hair and the way the epidermis is bunched up around it. You will also see what looks like as if a scorching has taken place. The hair follicle right next to it appears to have suffered a greater degree of scorching.
    The bottle necking, or restriction, should not be there. The hair is weakened at that point but definitely still intact. No big deal, but when you see the photo of one of the "shed" hairs, you will be better able to understand that it can be a big deal. It is weak, brittle, and easily broken."
     
  14. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    I am also adding the other two photos and text that go along with the above.

    "This photo is a "shed" hair from one of the shedding caribou. You can see where the end of the hair has been dissolved, and burned in two. This section corresponds to the section of hair that is identified with the pink circle in the above photo."
     
  15. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    This next photo is a greater enlargement of the end of the hair shaft in the previous photo. It appears that some of the epidermal cells and collagen fibres have been dissolved, and fused to the hair shaft. You have seen individual hairs before, and you already know the lengths and diameters they come in, I'll let you do the math as to how many times the hair in this photo has been enlarged. Needless to say, it will be displayed at different sizes on different monitors. How many bacteria can you count?
     
  16. oldshaver

    oldshaver Guest

    Glen what I understood, in your own photos, that bottleneck is supposed to be there. It is where the follicle, connects to the hair shaft, then to the hollow hair portion. I thought that was just the nature of the hollow hair? Isnt it also common for keratin to bunch up around the epidermis, and the shaft?
     
  17. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    Oldshaver, if you do something like that again, give me a page address! I'm riding herd on about four hundred web pages, and I do not have the locations of all this stuff memorized. I had a heck of a time trying to remember where that photo was at.

    The photo has been on the web for a few years, and on two different web sites. That was one of the very first, if not the first, macro photos I ever took, and I did that before I knew what "boot up" a computer meant. Our secretary used to bring up the photos for me on the computer, and at the time I took that, we were in awe.

    I took my obsolete photo, and increased the brightness and contrast. It does show things a little better. For the rest of you, here is PART of the text for that article, the balance can be found by clicking on the link:
    http://www.hidetanning.net/Microscope.html

    This sample was taken from the edge of a tine wound on the side of the neck. It was right at the edge of the scab. I had soaked the scab and area adjacent to with water. That allowed this sample to come right off.

    This will give you an idea as to what a "normal" hair will look like if you put your first attention on the hair that has the F designation. The F is the follicle.

    The A and the next arrow down, points out the shaft.

    B points out the hollow part of the hair.

    Compare the E area to the enlarged photo of a follicle.

    The two arrows that point to the silvery threads, those silvery threads are under coat.
    You might want to come back and take another look at the area that is circled, once you have gone through this article. By that time, you should have an understanding as to what has taken place.

    Notice that these hairs are straight.

    P.S. Notice the fancy way I put those letters and arrows on the photo, that should show you right there that I was destined for photo chopping.
     
  18. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    "Glen what I understood, in your own photos, that bottleneck is supposed to be there. It is where the follicle, connects to the hair shaft, then to the hollow hair portion. I thought that was just the nature of the hollow hair?"

    I'm going to take you as being serious in your questions/statements.

    My quote, reference pink circle, "Notice the bottle necking, or hour glass waist shape, of the hair and the way the epidermis is bunched up around it. You will also see what looks like as if a scorching has taken place. The hair follicle right next to it appears to have suffered a greater degree of scorching."

    You will notice that the sides of the shaft, or medulla, are out of parallel, hence "bottle neck, or hour glass waste shape".

    "Isnt it also common for keratin to bunch up around the epidermis, and the shaft?"

    As new cell growth takes place, the outermost cells can become keratinized as a result of being shut off to circulation that provides nutrition and waste removal. Happens to all of us. Get all sweaty and oily, then wet down your skin with plain old water, and you can probably roll dead skin right off.

    With each of those hairs having their own functioning oil gland when the animal is alive, the tension created by the oil would be enough to keep dead cells from sloughing as easily as dead cells in the spaces between hairs.

    Now if you're talking about abnormal growths on the medulla as a result of keritinazation, I've never seen it. Doesn't mean the possibility doesn't exist, it just means I have never seen it.

    While we are into splitting hairs, look how many coat changes a whitetail will go through in one year. For them hair is a renewable resource, so I would have to suspicion the "useful life" of a hair would not tend to lend it's self to keratin deformities as a result of age of the hair.
     
  19. oldshaver

    oldshaver Guest

    OK, so now I have done a little reading. H-bonding is happening upon re hydration. Salt increases ionic bonding. In this case, wouldn't Krow-Tan be a good product, since it requires alot of salt? It also incorporates a fat liquor, which is necessary to prevent that brittle hair. Pickling with the correct amount of salt, also increases the ionic bond, from what I read. I haven't took chemistry, since high school, but I can guarantee, I safely tan more skins than 50% of the people on here, per week, put together. Dale Earnhardt, could drive the crap out of a race car, but he didn't build his engines. After this being said, a paint on, is OK, but not AS GOOD, as a submersible.Glen, please dont be condisending. Your never too old to learn.
     
  20. cyclone

    cyclone Posts: 400001

    Here is some interesting reading:

    http://www.uga.edu/scwds/topic_index/2004/HairLossWVdeer.pdf

    OK no S.A. remarks about WV!

    Then look at the "Diagnosis" section in wikipedia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alopecia
    Yeah, I know one is about deer and the wikipedia article is about humans..


    One of the characteristics is Exclamation point hairs ! Imagine that...

    .One of the causes, stress....quite abundant in a white tail's life...