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Krowtan

Discussion in 'Tanning' started by RichMO, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. RichMO

    RichMO Well-Known Member

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    Ok just heard some things about Krowtan and thought I would throw this out. i was informed that even though Krowtan has been around for a number of years that it does not give much stretch to the cape (?) and that I should apply a finishing oil the day before, put in the refrigerator over night and let it sweat to get the stretch? Like to hear more on this. I just went to a new tanner and he uses Krowtan. Any thoughts or advise. I sent him one cape but have not mounted it yet..... One thing I heard it the deer cape will shrink more than other tans? and that's why the oil....
     
  2. Krowtann is a pickle not a tan. No need to oil a pickled skin.

    DP
     

  3. I use krota n and deer stretch just
    The as easy as any other tan, in my opinion
     
  4. tem

    tem Well-Known Member

    i been usen krowtan for a few years now. i would stretch the cape then put it on the form. seemed to fight it now and then. i started to oil them and let them sit out over nigh. not in fridge. i seemed to get a good stretch. im not fighting it like i once was.
     
  5. D Price, wrong sorry bud you are wrong.

    Yes it tans and extremely well. Do you know what is in Lutan-F? Yep same stuff just not dry powder form and then some.

    Rich, I have used it for many years and when the directions are followed the skin will be limp as a dish rag and will let out way out.

    If you are not gettign the same results now as you did 19 years ago, its because you have changed something in your methods.
     
  6. No sir, you are wrong !!! You can not get a "TRULY TANNED" skin by skipping the salting step, and pickling, tanning and oiling all in one step....it just can't happen.

    When are the non tannable proteins removed from the skin?

    Where do the non tannable proteins go?

    It is nothing more than a pickle or glorified preservative !!!

    DP
     
  7. Tanglewood Taxidermy

    Tanglewood Taxidermy Well-Known Member

    I used it a couple of times and it produced a nice mountable cape. The problem I had with it is that it shrunk so much that the apoxie work around the eyes cracked. I had to redo the apoxie. A year later I had to redo the apoxie again. I believe that the use of Krowoil would have help in that situation. I would use the Krow oil, as it can't hurt, but it can certainly help.

    I have never had apoxie work crack before or after, only on the deer I did with Krowtan.

    I would have a hard time sending my capes to some one who uses such controversial products.

    Those are my thoughts and experiences.
     
  8. RichMO

    RichMO Well-Known Member

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    I do know he fleshes the cape down, and salts. I'm not sure of his process after that. The first cape I got back looked good and was shaved down. So is it tanned or not?? should I use Krowoil before mounting??. D. Price claims it is not a tan?? John Creager claims it is?? One reports no problem?? One reports epoxy cracking?? Lots of interesting things. I might have screwed up sending them to this guy ?? I think I saw him using Krowtan 2000.
     
  9. I know I get some pretty nice soft tanned hides with it.

    So Price at what point is When are the non tannable proteins removed from the skin? In the saltimg? No that is just removing the water, in the pickle? No that is just stabilizing the skin and opening the cell structure back up supposedly for the tannins.

    Now lets talk about tannins. Lutan_F was developed by the NAZIs in WW-II when they were running out of natural resources, its a by product of the aluminum making process. Now considering that under arm deodorant has both Aluminum chloride and Aluminum sulfate, the primary ingredients in both according to the BASF site.

    At which point is the When are the non tannable proteins removed from the skin?
     
  10. Tanglewood Taxidermy

    Tanglewood Taxidermy Well-Known Member

    No wonder my arm pits are supper soft and really white with no shrinkage.
     
  11. Actually Creager, the salt does start removing non tannables immediately. Then they are also removed during pickling, this is why you can not do it all in one step.

    Do you know what collagen is? It is a protein that has to be altered for proper tanning.

    Do you know why you would send the old horse or mule to the "Glue Factory"? To extract the collagen from the animal to make glue. Every animal has it, yes including humans. It is the protein in the body that allows muscles, tendons, cartilage, and yes the skin to be flexible. Without it you could not move.

    After the shaving step you can sometimes see the collagen stuck in broken or split hairs on skins around the antler burrs from rubbing trees, bullet holes and cuts as little white sticky particles.

    I know you are from Arkansas and the late Brian Harness, also from Arkansas and one of your good friends was the master mind behind the Krowtann formula, but that still doesn't make it a tan.

    Once again, you can not pickle, tan and oil all in one step, it is plain old chemistry, nothing more, nothing less.

    DP
     
  12. So explain why I get the results then? Tanning is not rocket science, I get good dry tans with it. Collagen is far more than what you said. You do sound like a Jergens commercial. Thats not just fat on a pot of boiling meat that is also collagen.

    When you cook, collagen begins to melt at about 160F and turns to a rich liquid, gelatin. This gives meat a lot of flavor and a wonderful silky texture. When cooking it is important to liquefy collagen.

    No the fact is we are not making a wax infused leather like the leather for a boot sole, we are preserving it enough to mount it. Using todays glues why should we go to the extra effort to make some leathery product (Using your ideals here) for a mount?

    I know this I have used commercial tans and home tans and years ago dry preservative. Since we are not making boot leather or harness leather, we dont need that kid of durability. It does not add anything to the mount, no bug proofing etc.

    I have tried using PRO -1 and all the other hide past over the years, Pro-1 is goign to stick a commercial tanned hide or Krowtanned hide. maybe even some other tans I suppose.

    But all this aside, this is a simple question, if you cant get a tanned hide by any other means than why even attempt to tan or shave a hide in house? The little difference between a in house tan and and a pickle will not add to anything.

    I just have to LOL all the way to the bank.
     
  13. Okay Creager you are rambling on about cooking, Nazi's and Lutan !!!

    The bottom line is you just agreed with what I said about not getting a truly tanned skin and that Krowtann is just a pickle or glorified preservative.

     
  14. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    I really dont care for thesetypes of posts, and I also dont like talking too much more than I already have on this subject. I get tired of saying the same thing over again, much like Oldshaver. But, someone wrote me and asked me to weigh in...

    I question whether some of our so called tanning methods are actually producing leather. I also wonder if it needs to be leather to be right. My experience with krowtan, regardless of what anyone calls it, were not to my liking on deer or other thicker skins. It worked well for me on some fox, coyotes and cats, especially if they were iffy. Thank you alum. To me theres just too much salt in it, and I experienced too much shrinkage. Ive been told a lot on both sides of this issue, friends of the product vs tanning experts. The guys who just claim they never had trouble ever withit so it must be good, well...again, its like the person who runs across the road without looking, thats still alive.

    But I have had issues with some well known tans too. I have a couple of true favorites, and of course nowadays I just keep that opinion to myself, for obvious reasons. I guess Ill say this, it has forced me to learn more about tanning and processes, and not just assume what Im being told is true...no different than any other consumer/product relationship.

    To me it seems that there needs to be less salt, a method of getting more water wicked out of the skin, a more accurate manner to neutralize, and probably oiling would help once those other issues were addressed. But the product seems to have its place, regardless of what people are calling its end result.
     
  15. Price, maybe you should stick with rebuilding fleshing machines. Few have the knowledge to produce a quality tan at home regardless of tan. We both know there have been thousands of failures with other tans too. To include paint on tans lol.

    YOU should know the history of Lutan thats why I put the little bit of history in there and the cooking so you can add that to your knowldge. Old horses no longer go to the glue factory. They go to Mexico, then to the markets of Europe. There are almost not glue factories left. So stop eating it Price.
    An animal glue is an adhesive that is created by prolonged boiling of animal connective tissue.

    These protein colloid glues are formed through hydrolysis of the collagen from skins, bones, tendons, and other tissues, similar to gelatin. The word "collagen" itself derives from Greek κόλλα kolla, glue. These proteins form a molecular bond with the glued object.

    Stereotypically, the animal in question is a horse, and horses that are put down are often said to have been "sent to the glue factory". However, other animals are also used, including rabbits and fish.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_glue
     
  16. Bill the cape I had at the Yoxathon was Krowtanned. Bondo ears too.
     
  17. pir^2h

    pir^2h Retrievers give you the bird

    Whether it is a pickle or a tan, the bottom line is, if you like the product, feel comfortable using it and trust it to do the job to your satisfaction, use it! If I were paying someone to commercially tan my items and this were their method I would be looking for a new tanner ASAP. I tried Krowtann. It worked but I did not feel it was comparable to other methods I had experimented with so I switch. No point getting into a big pi$$ing match over this. We all have our favorites and opinions, and whether you are for or against most likely you will not convince anyone to switch from Krowtann or abandon what they use right now. It isn't worth the elevated blood pressure over this. Chill Folks!
     
  18. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    John, I dont use krowtan for deer... but I dont tell others not to, just my opinion of better ways, as a teacher. I dont use bondo for ears. I suggest liners, but again as a teacher I dont tell them its wrong. You know that. I dont recall your cape, too many classes, but I recall you did a nice head so Im sure there was no issues due to krowtan, etc.

    See this is why I dont like to be asked to comment in these kinds of posts. Guys only grab what they want out of what is said. John, you took exception on the glue analogy with the horses. He was right. Maybe not TODAY, but anyone knows the practice was done. He was explaining collagen, not the present status of the horse industry.

    Guys, in my ugly Yox opinion, I dont like how thicker skins feel when prepared with krowtan and some other tried and true methods. They feel raw to me, and I just personally dont like it. Thats not open to debate. Its MY opinion. Same thing with bondo ears, no way Hose. I dont like how the edge curls inward. We have tons of bondo discussions and guys will debate me all day on fenders, autobody, adhesion and drumming. But NOBODY touches the curled edge subject with me. The hair gets rolled inward on the top edge, and the bottom edge wants to roll too. Pick and chose, not addressing it all, like I did to make my choise of what I want to use.

    John, youll use what suits you best.

    DPrice, you know what tanning methods are sound, and youve made your choice.

    Oldshaver, youve seen and formulated so you also know well.

    And Rich, youll be fine with the tannery youre using, just let him know your concerns...
     
  19. Brian Reinertson

    Brian Reinertson Well-Known Member

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    So.. if I take a krowtanned deer cape and brush on Pro-1 oil will it work and make it better with more stretch and easier to mount with less shrinking??
     
  20. Cant say about pro-1 I did run out out of oil, and put McKenzie tan on one, the next day the hide was fine but had swelled in thickness. MOunted fine but was odd feeling.