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Discussion in 'Lifesize Mammals' started by pir^2h, Jun 15, 2017.
I agree with George on this one. he definitely knows what hes talking about
George, After your comment that hide paste won't stick to a plastic earliner I decided to test it. I sanded a McKenzie earliner and used Pro 1 to glue a scrap piece of deer hide to it. After 6 days it is locked down really good. I suppose if I wanted to really rip on it, it would pull off. But so would an epoxied ear because I have taken them apart before.
I used to use two part epoxy. First the Wesco product from MK which turned the ear hair yellow. Then the Epo Grip Liquid Fast Set. Really liked that. The only downside is you can't adjust the ear skin after it kicks. I like to move the ear skin and ear butt skin around after it is mounted to get everything in place. Can't do that with epoxy. I will stick with hide paste on the ears for that reason.
X2 bucknut ! If you prep it properly and have the right size liner pro one WILL hold it ! I like glue over epoxy for the same reason as you to adjust your skin and make sure you have no air bubble's . Paul Cales will tell you the same thing .
I like to use Magic Smooth. It is a 2prt epoxy that is the consistency of hide paste and gives you about 4 hours or more to work it before it becomes too hard to move.
So let me ask this question of you two: Why would you NEED to adjust the skin after the glue sets. Are you saying that you can't sit at your workbench and taxi that skin for 5 whole minutes to insure it's properly positioned? I have to say, that's a new one on me.
I'm just talking about the EARLINER glue now, not the butt. I mix fluid oz. of Liquid Fast Set (3/8 fl "A" and 3/8 fl "B") I pour half of it into the ear pocket. The other half is poured into the earliner cup. I use a acid brush to paint the inside of the earliner. Then I take the ear pocket and squeeze the glue in there al around the edges of the ear before squeezing it out into the interior of the ear skin. I insert the liner and begin pushing all the air to the ear butt area. I align my ear edges and insure that the the center base area is tucked into the liner properly. I take two fingers to insure that the skin stays flat against the liner towards the inner ear area. As it begins to heat up, I insure the edges are aligned and brush all the hair in the correct directions with a baby hair brush. I still have a few seconds to make any adjustments. When the skin becomes hot, I fold the skin back to insure no epoxy is on the hair and remove any "wads" of glue that may be on the earliner butt area. Then I do the other ear the same way. Once that epoxy catalyzes, I'll never NEED to adjust it again and all the work of pulling the hide and stretching the face area has virtually no effect on those ears.
And Bruce, I don't need to sand the earliners. With hide paste, sanding gives the paste more "tooth" area (surfaces to surround and BOND to the earliner. That's the same idea dipping the liner in lacquer thinner and then dipping it into sawdust was meant to accomplish. It's also why we used to punch holes in the earliners.
I'm with Bruce on this one George, I don't need to always adjust the ear skin later on but, when I do, it is nice to be able to. And besides we just may not be as good as you George. If hide paste will stick to a roughed up form it will stick to a roughed up ear liner. Yes it is a mechanical adhesion and not a chemical one, but in this instance, it does just fine. PS, I've seen epoxy glued ears fail and drum. It may have been the persons procedure, not sure but, fail they did.
My question still hasn't bee answered 3bears: what is there to adjust if the skin is permanently locked down?
I've seen epoxies ears drm too but invery case, it was operator error. If you don't was all the tanning oil off the cape, epoxy will not hold. Of you don't allow lacquer thinner or acetone to evaporate, they are epoxy solvents that won't allow the epoxy to work.
The answer was given but you refuse to accept it George. Every now and again, I get ahead of myself and may not catch the fact that my hairlines are off on my ears, if I locked that down as quickly as you say, I would have to live with it. Fortunately for me and my customers, I don't have to, I can go back after the mount is put together, before it dries, and adjust that little oversight. If I epoxied it I would be SOL. My mounts may have many issues but that is one I can help to alleviate, by the adhesive I utilize.
Same here 3bears . I may miss a air bubble in there and if you do its gonna drum don't care what you use . I just need and like that little extra time I have . It works for me just like epoxy works for others . I've tried epoxy years ago and I personally had issues with it . "Operator error "probably so. But after talking to judges and some top taxidermist in the country about my problems with epoxy and earliners what I do now is how they told me to fix my issues. Everyone has a way to do things that work for them . Just because one person dose it their way doesn't mean that ways for everyone .
Well, in MY OPINION, that's a piss poor answer. If you don't have time to do them correctly the first time, why bother and go back to correct it when you could have been moving over to other things. Perhaps you guys don't like epoxy - I don't have a problem with that. HOWEVER, I do have a problem understanding the justification that perhaps you missed something doing it with epoxy. If that's the case, by all means avoid it. When you use an epoxy as an earliner adhesive, you have 5-7 minutes to dedicate on getting it right the first time. I don't have air bubbles as I push them out. I don't have misaligned edges because I go over them and brush the hair to insure they're aligned properly. And with spending 10 minutes, I never have to worry about readjusting them as they may have gotten moved during mounting. This just seems to be a justification for continuing the "way we've always done it" rather than a reason to make better use of your time and materials.
George, Do you use epoxy on your whole form? No. Why? So you can go back and fix things or adjust as it dries, if needed. This is no damn different with the ears, yes I take the time to put things where they belong, the best I can, but I am only human and make mistakes and this is one potential area I can fix, once I put the deer together and step back and look it over. FYI, I use to use epoxy on my ears , I didn't like it for the exact reasons stated by me and others including the yellowing of the hair. You must be the only one that is skilled enough to avoid the issues with epoxy. I gave you, what I believe, and others it seems, to be valid reasons for using Pro 1 on ears, ultimately I guess it matters not to me, what your opinion is, so I'll step away from this discussion and continue to do what works for me.
I agree with the several guys here that said FIT is the most important thing to avoid drumming issues with your earliner so. Make sure the earliner is very, and I do mean very, slightly under sized for your ears. It allows for the space that the adhesive takes and allows for a bit of shrinkage in your skin.
In my classes, I tell my students that you can ask 100 taxidermist how to do a task and you will get 98 or 99 different answers. But interestingly enough we all seem to get to a very similar end product.
Like a lot of other I started out with epoxy and then went to hide paste..(I won't tell you the brand) but I got drumming so back to epoxy... Then went to to Pro 1 (colored it a plus) and have not had any problems..... I test fit all my ear liners first to ensure the fit... I think this is answer number 99 out of the 100. Everyone on here has or had problems at one time or another .....this has been a good discussion...
Now you're getting silly 3bears. The ears never change, the earbutts, the eyes, the mouth, the nose certainly do. But just so that you know, I HAVE USED EPOXY HIDE PASTE quite successfully. I used the 7 hours recipe and had plenty of time to taxi the hide. No pins, no carding, just stayed after it for 7 hours and it was done (I had to wait for outside skin to dry, but by using Apoxie instead of clay, the deer was ready to paint in two days.
The real issue really isn't the glue. A good hide paste will work. The main issue is prepping the ear liner by roughing it up with sand paper really good and then test fitting the ear skin. Let the skin dry a little which will allow it to shrink some and then test fit the liner. It it's fits perfectly, it's too big. If the skin is sloppy somewhat and has some play in it, then it is perfect. I use pro-1 or Romans 555 . I have even used Mckenzie hide paste all with great results. Mainly because of the prep work being done correctly.
Jason, perhaps the way YOU do ears, that's OK for you, but I don't let a hide shrink because I can't properly fit an earliner. I fit my earliners to the ear as it is.
George, it only makes since to let it shrink down some b4 test fitting. If you test fit while it's sloppy wet,, your guessing and hoping it doesn't shrink down too much after you put the liner in. If some of the shrinking has already happened then you get more of an accurate idea about the fitting. I'm not saying it's THE way of doing it but I like doing it this way. All I did was give someone another way of trying things and now backed up my reason of doing it this way. More than one way to skin a cat
If your using clay for ear butts, the clay goes fairly high on the lower front of the liner and on top to form proper muscle groups that hold the ear to head. If your not sure where and why muscle groups go where they go and use 2-part you will or may not be able to add clay where it needs to be if its locked down on liner. Also if you use the plastic butts and slide the ear/butt combo in and use 2-part and let it dry, your screwed as you will need to twist the ear butt skin on plastic butt to the right spot, counter clockwise on the left side and opposite on the right to get proper anatomy. If your not sure on proper mounting procedures in using 2-part, stay with water base until you get it down.
When McKenzie sold justbmediun earlier I had drumming issues..
Now they offer small and large and my ears have no drumming.
Proper fit means everything.
My deer mounts this season are
I make a note of the ear size when i take my measurements.. you can look at them and know If they are sm, med, or lg at a glance
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1966 did my first bobcat with hammered pumbers lead with holes drilled in it for earliners,with Elmers wood glue, still holding. Kept the arsenic for tanning under the bed, North Western School of Taxidermy "class of 68" !2 yrs old. Now I use earliners, sometimes bondo them, but I always try to get the inside of the ear dry. The "product" used (glue,epoxy, caulk, or whatever) adheres better to a dry surface.