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Rustolium triple thick glaze?

Discussion in 'Fish Taxidermy' started by Mudbat, Aug 22, 2017.

  1. FishArt

    FishArt Well-Known Member

    Now that you mention it, I use Wood and Water water-based gloss as a basecoat/sealer and to also sometimes carry my powders. Anyway, after sealing a fish a bit on the heavy side with this stuff once I noticed that it had quite the shine. In fact just as good as any of the lacquer based glosses. AND, I shot it from my Passche Single action with a #3 tip. Hands-down the best water based gloss for shine that I've ever used. I would recommend going to a touch-up gun though for anything bigger than a bass. It's not cheap, but again the best WB gloss I've ever used.

    P.S. I wasn't one of the "everyone's" that stated you could only spray WB over WB btw!
     
  2. Sotired

    Sotired Active Member

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    [quote author=FishArt

    P.S. I wasn't one of the "everyone's" that stated you could only spray WB over WB btw!
    [/quote]

    Oh I didn't mean you, this was back when Polytranspar water based was new, and mastodons still roamed, and before the internet could verify everything! ;D

    ~S
     

  3. FishArt

    FishArt Well-Known Member

    I think the internet has actually done the opposite. Deciphering out the crap and finding actual, factual data isn't always an easy task these days!
     
    TPT66 likes this.
  4. Cecil

    Cecil Well-Known Member

    It sucks compared to the automotive clear coats.

    Take that Marty! LOL
     
  5. Sotired

    Sotired Active Member

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    Ooooh, let the smackdown commence!!!
     
  6. FishArt

    FishArt Well-Known Member

    Please explain why it sucks Cecil!

    The only real differences I see are a slight increase in shine with an auto gloss. And I know all of the WB glosses (except W&W) it's possible to get a run if you don't roll your fish. (I've had small runs with auto glosses too btw!) Generally, it takes a little more effort and knowledge of the WB products to know it's limitations and qwerks if any. All glossing products for that matter. In fact, any problems I believe can be attributed to "operator error" and not the product if directions are followed properly. Other than that, this whole gloss-wars thing is really stupid!!! The differences are negligible and I betcha even YOU couldn't tell me which fish I glossed with a can and which with an automotive gloss??? (I have several on my website gallery that were glossed with an auto gloss - the rest with rattle cans.) Give me any spray can or can of gloss for my gun - whatever make and brand, and I'll lay it down and at that point it does not matter. Heck, I could paint a car with a rattle can and I'll betcha I could lay it down quite evenly. It's all about experience with the product. The customer doesn't know any difference in glosses and longevity for a fish mount, not exposed to the elements with any gloss is comparable. Now, I've already proven to you that an auto gloss is NOT the most cost effective route to go Cecil. So, it's not a cost savings thing. It's simply your preference for a slightly better shine (maybe). Health-wise, you should have more concerns IMO. You better be wearing those NUKE suits (Like Aaron Stehling pics on their website) when spraying your toxic auto gloss because the cyanide and other nasty chemicals don't only attack your lungs. We want you to be around a long time to argue on here - lol! JMO...
     
  7. Cecil

    Cecil Well-Known Member

    All I know is I tried water based gloss once and was not impressed for two reasons:

    1. I don't like putting H20 on a fish mount after I went to all the trouble of drying it.

    2. It was nowhere near as impressive as the polyurethane automotive gloss I use.
     
  8. FishArt

    FishArt Well-Known Member

    That's fine Cecil - why change if you're happy with the product you're using? However, I do need to point out that (sic) "you tried it once". You almost have to force yourself to continue using new products simply so that you can get use to using them. Almost everybody has issues with any product the first time they use it. Myself included. I kept changing my white paints out due to the paint cracking. Now, certain brands are more susceptible to cracking with their white paint like Hydromist. But, they all crack if you lay it on too thick. White paint for whatever reason(s) has to be laid down in layers for heavy coverage. My problem was I simply gave up on a product thinking it was the problem, but in reality it was "operator error". Heck, I think I even blamed the Apoxie Sculpt at one point - lol! Occasionally, we'll get a product that isn't compatible or gives us grief due to our industries unique applications. But, for the most part all these products work. But, sometimes they only work if you follow their directions to the letter....

    P.S. The initial flashcoat(s) regardless of the carrying agent for the most part goes on dry or dries very quickly. Your auto gloss is wet too dude!
     
  9. Ron Kelly

    Ron Kelly Active Member

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    Not trying to get into a Marty argument, but for me, I agree with Cecil. I have never seen a rattle can or other gloss that even compares with 2 coats of auto gloss. You can try to sell that all day if you want, but I do too many fish at a time to mess with an inferior product. Yes, I can tell and my customers can tell as well when a fish is glossed with a can verses a big gun. The shimmers and pearls "pop" and it is a smooth, thicker coverage. I have 4 suction fans in front of me that shoots those fumes straight out and don't use a mask. Just had a checkup at the VA Hospital and my lungs are fine. I have fish from 30 years ago that have never yellowed or faded. Can't say that about the ones I used to spray with a can or other type of gloss. Not trying to start or continue an argument, but I do have 40 years experience with almost 16,000 fish and counting behind me. Not trying to sound like a know it all, just trying to help. Use what you want, but the BETTER quality finish work is with the better gloss.
     
  10. fishmaster

    fishmaster Well-Known Member

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    I'm with Ron on this one. There is not an rattle can product on the planet that compares with automotive urethane. They have to thin rattle can down so much that you get 70% solvent to 30% solids. If you do only a handful of fish a year I get it but if you are painting fish once or twice a week every week auto gloss is the only way to go. As he describes there is a level of clarity in the finish that magnifiyies your colors. I will spray fish tonight, box and ship them tomorrow in peanuts and never have an issue of anything sticking to them.


    I used water based glosses for about a year that were sprayed thru a bigger auto spot gun. I used a very high quality product that is sold for doing gymnasium floors. It goes on with a slight milky tint so you can see how thick you are spraying it and drys reasonably fast but it requires at least 4 coats to get the same level of gloss that i can get with one or two automotive. It has an odor that is just about as nasty as automotive so there is no help there. In addition you had to be very careful about runs. I tried it and you can get ok results by what is the point in spending more time to do the same thing and there was no cost savings. Even though auto urethane will run $75-80 a gallon my cost per inch of fish will still be less than rattle can and the results will be better.

    I do use a forced air respirator when I'm spraying automotive. It pulls air from the other side of the shop 30' away where I crack a window, filters the air and brings it into a mask. I cannot even smell the auto urethane. I also have a kick ass exhaust fan that is running as well. This unit costs about $350 but the one I have as lasted for 10 yrs and still going strong.
    Rattle can paint is great for certain applications but fish gloss is not one of them. If you ever saw them sprayed side by side you'd agree.
     
  11. FishArt

    FishArt Well-Known Member

    Ron and FishMaster - no arguments on the shine, I already stated that. BUT, the differences between someone that knows how to shoot a rattle can and someone who knows how to shoot a gun with automotive clear are nowhere near the amount you're exaggerating about. FAKE NEWS - lol! We'll agree to disagree on this one! My bet is you are holding that rattle can at 90 degrees (big mistake) if you're not getting your fish shiny enough with a rattle can. Then, there's the argument that a super shiny, thick gloss is not representative of a real fish either. I hate restores where somebody used a two part and put it on SO thick that it's impossible to paint over and has to be stripped - if it can. We're not building cars here folks! Automobiles have to deal with the weather and sun and all sorts of things our fish do not. Sorry, but I'll prove it if you want! Next time you guys are in the Chicago or Galena, Illinois area I will gladly lay down a few coats of Triple Thick (the glossiest rattle can IMO IF layered properly). I think you'd be lying to me if you weren't surprised by MY results.

    Large, production fish shops are really the only ones these days where a spray gun is more cost-effective. You have to put out the volume to make up the extra cost of equipment to spray inside and the extra time it takes you to clean up. Your product is not that much cheaper than rattle cans if you do the math. I can count on my two hands the large, production fish shops these days (one hand???). So you certainly ain't barking to the masses when it comes to the cost savings debate.

    P.S. I do about 50 fish a year these days. No production lines here. In my "hey-day" I did about a 100. I'm probably representative of most on here with my numbers. Still not enough fish to make up the cost differences for me. I shoot 1-3 fish at a time. Some of 'em bigger than me though! If I delivered twice a year and shot thirty fish at once, it would probably be more cost-effective to go with a gun. Again, not too many of us out there that gloss more than a couple of fish at a time.

    P.S.S. Ron, DougP has 50 year old fish in his shop glossed with rattle cans that still look great, so touche'! LOL! And also, IMO it also ain't gonna matter which gloss you use to "make your pearls and shimmers" pop. That all happens in the flash coat to lock-in w/o obliterating. And then of course building the layers. Automotive Smoother? C'mon man yer killing me! Thicker, maybe. And I do not want thicker nor do my customers. They want to see their scale detail even if that means a slightly duller shine...
     
  12. fishmaster

    fishmaster Well-Known Member

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    If you like it use it but don't try to sell the world that there is any comparison in the finished product. And I has nothing to do with the angle the product is sprayed. The stuff is 50% thinner than the automotive stuff we spray. They make automotive urethane in a rattle can and it runs about $20. I bought some so that I would have an superior product that I could use to spray an individual fish that needed to go our the door. It too will work but it does not work nearly as well the bigger gun sprayed version because it has to be thinned down to get it in the CAN. It took twice as many applications to do the same thing.
     
  13. 1fish2fish

    1fish2fish Well-Known Member

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    I do see aerosol automotive urethane clearcoats are being increasingly sold and used for touch up
     
  14. FishArt

    FishArt Well-Known Member

    Fishmaster, not sure what your point is about your first statement. Again, we are not putting out fish to handle the weather outside.

    Secondly, when it comes to shooting gloss with a rattle can if you say it has nothing to do with shooting 90 degrees, then with all due respect, you clearly have not sprayed enough with a rattle can to make that call. I have. The reason being is because of the smaller spray pattern and probably less velocity. Even with swapping tips you have to spray less than 90 and proceed towards the direction you're spraying. Otherwise, you'll leave a splash/dry mark on the opposite side where the gloss has dried too quickly that creates the dullness that everybody is talking about. Things are drying quickly and it takes a ton of skill to lay down a great gloss coat with a rattle can on a big fish.

    Also, you contradict yourself when you state that "it took twice as many applications to do the same thing" - clearly stating the end result was the same as spraying with a gun - which earlier all of you stated was impossible to achieve with a can. Hmmmm.

    Yes, it takes me 4 or 5 coats IF I want to build up the can gloss to close to an auto gloss shine. CLOSE I said. I'm happy with 3 coats otherwise I start losing scale detail and the gloss is too thick IMO. And I contend - having done and seen others spray thousands of fish with a rattle can with excellent results, that you guys simply don't have the experience to make your claims. When you can gloss a 7 foot marlin with a can of Triple Thick with a stock nozzle on it with very good results (NOT automotive results, but close), come talk to me. If your fish aren't pretty darn close to the shine your gloss gun does then you either haven't laid down enough coats or you don't know what you're doing - sorry to be so blunt and of course JMO - lol!

    Now, the aerosol can of automotive gloss interests me, but if I remember correctly was difficult to find around here and even more costly over the internet with shipping. It had a CO2 cartridge in it or something if I'm thinking of the same product. Again, not worth the huge cost difference for a brilliant shine (that is debatable whether or not it is correct) vs. a great shine...
     
  15. Jimmy Lawrence

    Jimmy Lawrence Well-Known Member

    Marty Marty Marty......smh.

    The difference in the 2 are apples and oranges. Regardless of how they are applied.

    I use DeltronDC2000. I don't do a flash coat and it has never once ate into the paint or powder (I use less and less powder and pencils, almost none really). I don't babysit it and don't have to worry about the spray nozzle, or the degree I hold the sprayer. It kicks in less than 30 minutes and is UV resistant and smoother than any rattle can gloss I've seen. Not necessarily thicker. Just nicer. One coat and done.

    Not saying you can't get good results from a can. You absolutely can. But to compare the 2 isn't even a fair argument.

    As far as Don not having the experience with a rattle can that you may have, you must need to wear better ppe around the paints. He's got more experience than most of us on here combined. And not just time spent. Accolades and a quality track record. But I'm sure he would appreciate the lesson on how to properly hold a spray can.
     
  16. Jimmy Lawrence

    Jimmy Lawrence Well-Known Member

    Told you Ryan. This topic gets talked about over and over and over and over.
     
  17. FishArt

    FishArt Well-Known Member

    Jimmy, night and day difference? I dunno. A noticeable difference would be more like it imo. And again I must point out what exactly are we trying to reproduce? A glossy fish representative of a fish out of the water or one less glossy and underwater? I personally think it's the latter.

    Also my point being with the rattle can experience is that experience is sorta like knowing how to drive a stick vs an automatic. With the auto of course being the spray gun/auto gloss. Just because you can drive an automatic does not mean you can drive a stick. Going the other way however, is easy to do! Same thing with a spray gun. Once you can lay down an even gloss with a rattle can, a spray gun is easy. Having only experience in the latter doesn't teach one how to do the former. I'm assuming that if people poo-poo rattle cans so much that they probably don't have much experience with using them. A fair assumption typically and I don't know if that applies to Don or not. If he's sprayed 1000's of fish exclusively with rattle cans then I don't need to teach him how to use one properly. If he has ten thousand fish under his belt using a gloss gun, then "yes" I can teach him a thing or two about spraying with a rattle can.

    At least you stated the truth in that you can get good results with a rattle can. Many of the others made it sound like I was producing an inferior product by using a rattle can and I take offense to that because you can get good results with a can if you know what you're doing...
     
  18. FishArt

    FishArt Well-Known Member

    Name one topic that hasn't Jimmy! It's ALL in the archives just hit the little orange button - lol!
     
  19. 1fish2fish

    1fish2fish Well-Known Member

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    There are some beautiful fish mounts with semi-gloss clear coats. Some mounts rely on a thick gloss coat to do more work in the overall look.

    So there is that.


    If there was a one size fits all best gloss we'd all use it and that'd be the end of these "repeating" threads. There isn't. So, we're talking about the color clear. What are the issues:

    1. The visual aspects:
    Clearness? Supposing there isn't a discernible difference in clarity, what are we talking about, other than thickness.
    Hue:
    There are clears with a hint of blue, you probably aren't using them
    Yellowing? An issue that would be weighed in degrees. A slight yellowing from say, an Envirotex brush on clear coat may look great on a fish like, say, a SMB.

    2. Durability/UV protection
    Most have UV protecting built in now.
    Hardness vs brittleness, depends on the product. Everyone wants hard, no one wants brittle, they often come hand and hand.

    3. Ease of application:
    What's easy for you?
    Buying an air circulating respirator would be universal, if it were that easy. What's your health worth?
    Spray booth?
    Runs?
    Fogging?
    Eating paint?
    Forgiveness to operator error?
    Solvents?
    Numerous considerations.

    4. Cost, well, that's one too.

    3 pages from triple thick glaze, do you use it? Must be a Good topic. Let me know when you find the one fit wonder.
     
  20. I have glossed thousands of fish with rattle can gloss. My customers are always satisfied and I've done very good in competitions over the years. In fact I've had several judges during critique ask me what I use for gloss. I can't post a pic on here but I just posted a picture of a little brookie on fb glossed with a rattle can gloss. What ever floats your boat I guess. Ok back to work now I have 24 fish to gloss this morning.